Catamarans in Heavy Weather

[44'cruisingcat]

We haven't done any "real" heavy weather, but sailed 4 days in winds over 30 knots, 2 of them 35-45 kts. Just forward of the beam.


We were in a rally with 2 other cat's and 5 monohulls.


From talking to the crews, the main difference seemed to be that the mono crews generally spend all their time either in their bunks or in the cockpit.


It seemed their saloons were not desirable places to be.


Consequently they got wet, despite wearing weather gear">foul weather gear. And so their bedding also got wet.


In the cat's we all spent most of our time in the saloon. We didn't wear foulies, didn't need them. Shorts and T-shirts. Bedding stayed dry.


Everyone was safe, in all the boats. The weather never got bad enough for anyone to consider adopting survival tactics. Even in our dreadfully unsafe, lightweight, outboard powered boat, we were safe, dry and (reasonably) comfortable.


One advantage of being light and easily driven was that just a couple of square metres of headsail kept us moving at ~ 6 knots. The other boats all used some mainsail. A couple had minor problems with reefing systems, one second reef line broke.


Having daggerboards improved comfort too. We tried some board, and found it caused more violent decelerations after sliding when a wave hit. With no board down it was noticeably gentler.


IMO, in terms of safety there wasn't any major difference from cat' to mono. But the cat's crews were more comfortable.


This might be reflected in the fact that none of the mono owner's wives made the trip, preferring to fly in later. All the cat's had married couples aboard.


And for the record, we really could still put our cups of coffee on the table, and not spill them. But if we left them too long they'd slide off the table.

[BigBeakie]

Thanks 44CC, good summary.👍

I noticed in particular one thing from the skipper account of the Queeq pitchpole capsize and one thing from the photo. Seems that despite running before big, and building seas, they did not deploy any drogue that would have prevented surfing, and the photo shows the port keel seems to have broken off.

The first could be an issue of seamanship, the second an issue of build quality. However it's possible they hit something substantial, and then got pitchpoled?


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[belizesailor]

Now that we seem to be back on subject...a few other points on diffs between cats and monos in heavy weather from my perspective.

Specific boat was not mentioned so this assumes generalized mid sized cruising (not performance) boats.

For reference, I have heavy weather experience on both, but a bit more, and more severe, on monos (maybe Im just getting wiser with age). [emoji6]

Green Water on Decks...more likely in a mono. Rare on a cat...never seen more than a few inches of water over the decks on a cat and that was in especially ugly confused seas.

Getting Pooped. Unlikely on a cat as they tend to be lifted by following seas. I have seen water come up the sugar scoop steps and into the cockpit when following seas broke just right, but rarely and not much water (a few gallons).

Speed Control. One of the more significant differences. Cats tend to surf very easily and sometimes unexpectedly. Monos tend to need to be steered into a surf in all but extreme conditions. Breaking into an unexpected surf can be a heart stopping moment. Thus speed control devices, such as s drogue, are more important IMHO aboard a cat than a mono.

Windward Performance. A moderate displacement mono will tend to punch thru seas better than a mid sized cat so windward performance in heavier conditions is less adversely affected on a mono. More windage, relatively lighter weight, two hulls, bridgedeck pounding...all can reduce windward performance when it gets ruff in a cat.

Bridgedeck Pouding. Varies a lot by boat, but motor/motor sail almost any cat straight into big seas and you get it...really kills boat speed.

Heave-to. Not really even a mono vs cat question...more determined by design of boat...some boats heave to well some dont...whether cat or mono.

Going Forward on Deck. On a traditional mono there is a lot less open deck space and more stuff close at hand to hold/clip on to. All that wide open deck space on a cat, that is so nice at anchor or in fair conditions...is not confidence inducing when it gets rough.

Broaching. Cats are more directionally stable when running down the face of a wave...never experienced or even heard of a cat broaching...not hard to do on a mono in big following seas.

Downwind Steering. Steering monos in big following seas can be quite a workout...less so with cats due to higher directional stability.

Knock Down vs Capsize. Extreme sudden winds (like a water spout) can, and have, capsize cruising cats...only likely to knock down a mono.

[cwjohm]

Hi Belize

An excellent summary.

Green water on decks - I have seen a foot of water run past my helm in heavy conditions following surfacing down a wave and the bows digging in, but it runs past the helm and straight over the stern. A good mono will protect against this but will get pooped via the stern and you will be standing in a foot of water which will eventually run off.

Pooping - not a problem on cats unless you have a heavy dingy with motor sitting on your stern in which case you can be in all sorts of trouble. On passages always take the motor off the dingy and lash the dingy on or place in somewhere else on the boat.

Speed Control - agreed. Never had to use a drogue as the weight of the Helia means it will probably never take off, but I imagine on a fast, light boat it may have cause to be used.

Windward performance - agreed. Here is where a cat, although dry as 44C testifies, can be terribly uncomfortable as the boat hammers into the wave action and you get significant bridge deck pounding. No way can you leave your coffee on the table. I have had significant items fly all over the place. Before hitting the rough stuff in any boat including a cat you must secure all loose items.

Heave-to - all boats will do this - it is simply a matter of how, although I know several cat sailors that prefer to deploy a drogue balancing drag vs forward movement.

Going forward on deck - I wouldn't do it on a mono unless it was life or death. Prior to passaging I equipped handholds everywhere and jacklines from bow to stern. All were used when reefing in tough weather. To me this is a key issue. I have been looking extensively at light, fast cats, especially those that require going to mast to reef, and I always ask the question about rough weather. In every case I am told that they simply do not sail in rough weather. I have not yet looked at a boat for which I would have to spend significant $ to make it passage worthy in difficult conditions. On the other hand there seems to be many, many monos which are tried and tested for the rough stuff.

Broaching - entirely possible on a cat, but you have to be pretty incompetent to allow it to happen, whilst in really tough conditions on a mono you really have to focus on the helm the whole time.

Downwind Steering - Agreed

Knock down vs Capsize - I remain resolute in my opinion that on a typical production cat the chance of capsize is minimal as the rig will fail before capsize occurs. On a fast light, cat this may be a problem if you are not reactive enough in strong winds. Whether a knockdown on a mono is preferable to a rig failure on a cat I cannot really comment other than I would prefer not to experience either by reefing early and often.

My cut on this is probably a bit different to others. If I was passaging frequently I would probably go for a very good quality mono of around 50-60ft. However, passaging only occasionally and most coastal sailing I opt for comfort in a 40-50ft cat.

[downunder]

Off SA edge of cyclone

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6AQLWMnC3E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnBve75x04o

[Three Sisters]

Originally Posted by sailjumanji

I've never been in weather that bad in our 33 ft Seawind, and never crossed an ocean. We did a Gulf of Mexico race 150 nm distance in 2010. Wind started light but about halfway got to low 30's knots steady with higher gusts and large waves. Waves heights are always overestimated so I won't guess. Seemed huge. About a third of the fleet dropped out along the way. We were double reefed main, full jib, beating. Probably a dozen times we punched into waves that washed up over the windows of the hard top and dumped into the cockpit behind us. We had solid stretches of boat speed 13 knots, and tops was 15 knots. (Hull speed for this boat is more typically 7 knots, displacement conditions.)

Everyone onboard the boat was seasick, even the two of us that took meds. Four man crew. The two of us on meds were sick shorter time, the other two spent most of the race horizontal. I just had to suck it up, being my boat. That said, we were never in survival mode - we were trying to keep the boat moving fast and under control. We crossed the finish right in front of a Bahia 46. When we got to the dock, noticed the back of his boat was covered in barf! Seasickness was prevalent among all of the participants, even monohulls.

No cats pitch poled. We stuffed into waves hard numerous times, slowed, and then kept on trucking. If we were cruising, I would have jumped into port instead. But my lesson from it all is that the boat can handle conditions better than humans. And in high wind, even a short fat cat can get it's butt moving.

A great recount. Congratulations on the win.

Now if you'll excu...

[Mike_Thor]

Lrfiori, I have recently sailed (Jan-Mar 2016 our 16.2m Schionning Wilderness catamaran from Thailand to the Gold Coast (Australia) on an approx 4,000 NM non-stop delivery voyage. We stopped for fuel only as the wind was not kind. I started sailing (racing) in NZ (Auckland) early 1977 on a Farr 38 and continued racing in Australia (Pittwater) from 1987. I was an 'avid', perhaps sometimes 'rabid', mono-hull sailor until I was 'advised' more recently to do some proper research by mono-racing friends who have sailed around the world in a ketch rig with their three kids (less than 6 yo). Bottom line is that we now own a fantastic boat for US. That is to say there is definitely no 'one size fits all'. Comments above can be attributed to some definite facts but until you advise exactly how you (and partner if there is two of you) like to sail, what distances and types of sailing you prefer then I would not be able to define a solution. Then there is the budget. I do make this recommendation with the above caveats. Buy as big and as kitted out as you can afford. A more 'known' vessel will be easier to sell. A production vs home-build may have less 'bugs' but is not likely to have 'features' that you like. A boat with 'performance' is likely to be able to 'get out of the way' of weather but if you get caught in it (a mistake) then seamanship will always help you. Blue-water cruising is about lifestyle which for us does not involve deliberately sailing into foul weather as the likelihood of gear failure and damage to self and vessel are proportionally raised with every knot of wind: I have had enough southern ocean stuff (flew in Orion aircraft for my airforce career and saw enough of it and conducted far too many rescues to want to be on the receiving end). Like many things of a 'material' nature (and perhaps more) you need to wake up every day and enjoy your boat so spend some time getting to know what appeals to you and then cross reference this to a 'written down' list of your desired sailing (cruising) priorities. The closest match might be a good place to go sail (hire). Best of all though - we hope to welcome you to the multi-hull world and in particular to share our cruising lifestyle as soon as you can. Best of luck - PS There are also forums for woman-who-sail [country] which may be a good resource to use also.

[Mike_Thor]

Lrfiori, further to my last. We experienced three major blows (+50kts) and had two sets of crew (I was on both for the entire trip). The first crew comprised three on two hour shifts and the 2nd leg from Thursday Is (Far North Queensland - Australia) to Mooloollaba had 2 people on three hour shifts. Broke a halyard on day 1 due poor equipment configuration at mast head. Corrected. No pooping; max speed 21 kts in a storm (running oblique to wave front) and good helm control (performance); used autopilot for most of the trip even in 3+m waves. All good control. Have since reconfigured for 'at helm' reefing and have both drogues and anchors on board for emergency use only (i.e. when I have run out of other 'sensible options'. As mentioned in other responses: to pitch-pole our cat I would have to do something incredibly silly; like too much speed at the wrong angle with autopilot and me asleep downstairs but that said the rig will still come down before we capsize and so long as i have the windward dagger-board down (not leeward) we will slide more readily than roll and simple maths says we need a significantly sized wave (beam is 8.5 m) to roll us even if directly beam on. All this is 'maths' and easily researched. Try to do the research as deeply and as thoroughly from as broad a resource base as you can and you will soon get a better understanding. I am of the opinion that someone who strongly advises me to use a particular solution or that only a 'particular' type of boat is best is because they own one. I am particularly avid at the moment about poor anchoring because it appears that three are far too many people out there who simply don't know or don't care so ..... become an expert of 'what you want' then we can be more specific to your now 'specific' needs.

[tunnelvision]

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

Pheeew, thank goodness we appear to have all settled down a little

Here is a stack of stories from owners of Wharram catamarans ( another very safe design, certainly safer than some of the more contemporary offerings ) that have survived storm events at sea. I'm sure the OP and a few others may find some gems within.

SEE...... https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...scRzLrYNcQ/pub

Lots of good info in these reports . The number one thing that stuck out to me was if you want to get whacked New Zealand is the place!

[Red Herring]

This video says it all when it comes to multihulls and bad weather. It's Tony Smith, the designer of Gemini's 105/Legacy models, and his son crossing from IIRC Annapolis to Portsmouth England in a 34 foot Gemini 105Mc. It gets really harrowing towards the end, with huge short period waves following. Great watch. And the boat looked like it handled all that came it's way with aplomb.

https://vimeo.com/5595748

[Toys_with_time]

Originally Posted by jduve

I agree with DotDun. We have put sea with a forecast of over 30kts in an FP Lavezzi. The boat handled it easily when reefed appropriately and we made a fast passage. The second night we completely dropped the main and just had a reefed headsail.

We have had a few wild days with winds to 45 then got caught twice 2 years ago in winds gusting to 55 & 60. On the nose it was hard work with both engines and trying to stop the nose being blown off (no sails) but on the 2nd occasion when we could bear away we had a comfortable sail with a pocket handkerchief of jib up and sailing with the wind just forward and aft of the beam - agree that beam on not good. Being the Med the waves on all occasions have been at relatively short intervals and less than 4m so more uncomfortable than threatening. On none of these occasions did I feel that being on a cat constituted an additional risk and having a crew who were dry and comfortable (yet close at hand if required) in the shelter provided by a cat was a definite plus.
TwT

[BigBeakie]

Originally Posted by Toys_with_time

We have had a few wild days with winds to 45 then got caught twice 2 years ago in winds gusting to 55 & 60. On the nose it was hard work with both engines and trying to stop the nose being blown off (no sails) but on the 2nd occasion when we could bear away we had a comfortable sail with a pocket handkerchief of jib up and sailing with the wind just forward and aft of the beam - agree that beam on not good. Being the Med the waves on all occasions have been at relatively short intervals and less than 4m so more uncomfortable than threatening. On none of these occasions did I feel that being on a cat constituted an additional risk and having a crew who were dry and comfortable (yet close at hand if required) in the shelter provided by a cat was a definite plus.
TwT

Toys,

Just out of interest, what engines did you have on the Lipari to make headway against 60 knot winds?

[StuM]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Toys,

Just out of interest, what engines did you have on the Lipari to make headway against 60 knot winds?

Certainly not Oceanvolts.

[weavis]

[QUOTE=Red Herring;2340835]This video says it all when it comes to multihulls and bad weather. It's Tony Smith, the designer of Gemini's 105/Legacy models, and his son crossing from IIRC Annapolis to Portsmouth England in a 34 foot Gemini 105Mc. It gets really harrowing towards the end, with huge short period waves following. Great watch. And the boat looked like it handled all that came it's way with aplomb.

https://vimeo.com/113407787

I think what ticked me off the most is that I compiled the video from 3 segments, same timeframe and same code... and its been copied dozens of times...

Apart from that... its a great video....

[smj]

After that sail it's reported that Tony Smith said never again!