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Tom and Maje · 07-03-2017, 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Herring

This video says it all when it comes to multihulls and bad weather. It's Tony Smith, the designer of Gemini's 105/Legacy models, and his son crossing from IIRC Annapolis to Portsmouth England in a 34 foot Gemini 105Mc. It gets really harrowing towards the end, with huge short period waves following. Great watch. And the boat looked like it handled all that came it's way with aplomb.

https://vimeo.com/5595748

It is even more impressive when you consider that a Gemini is built for coastal cruising, NOT bluewater.

Maje

Tom and Maje · 07-03-2017, 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by smj

After that sail it's reported that Tony Smith said never again!

Well, considering a Gemini is only made for coastal cruising, I wouldn't have taken it across.

Maje

smj · 07-03-2017, 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom and Maje

Well, considering a Gemini is only made for coastal cruising, I wouldn't have taken it across.

Maje

I'm pretty sure when Tony made the crossing the Gemini was being marketed as blue water capable, though I would agree probably more of a coastal cruiser.

Tom and Maje · 07-03-2017, 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by smj

I'm pretty sure when Tony made the crossing the Gemini was being marketed as blue water capable, though I would agree probably more of a coastal cruiser.

I can tell you that it was not. We looked at it for a couple of years before buying our Leopard 40. The company was very clear that was not a bluewater boat.

Maje

smj · 07-03-2017, 06:32

Was this before or after Tony's crossing? As I recall he considered it blue water until he made the crossing then changed his mind. Once again I may be wrong, but I believe one of the reasons for the crossing was to get the boat CE certified so it could be sold in Europe.

smj · 07-03-2017, 06:34

http://gemini105.tripod.com/overview...mmaryPage.html

rabbi · 07-03-2017, 12:44

is this thread about a Gemini crossing in average weather or about cats in a blow?

I wonder how the Lipari motored against the 55-60kn wind, or even sailed with the wind in front of the beam.

In 2015 while we still had our FP Mahe we got caught in a 30min thunderstorm, constantly blowing 55+kn with peak gusts at 63kn. Both engines died after two minutes (stirred up diesel bug clogged both pickup lines).

All we could do was run with the wind under bare poles. Our standard sails would have been torn apart, no storm sails onboard (coastal cruising the med).
Even under bare poles we made a speed record @ 14kn surfing down the wave.

Seas were maybe 4m but very (!!!) short & steep. Very different from the 4m swell in a F5-6 in the open ocean. Airborne sea crests, foam and rain filled the cockpit faster than it could drain.

Of course we had no drogue onboard (just coastal cruising the Med)

The only danger was nose-diving into the next wave, so I hand steered initially but it did not really make much sense as I could not see much with all the water in the air. The autopilot was OK keeping a straight course (hydraulic drive and well oversized for the Mahe).

Lessons learned: Our new boat gets a drogue right away. And better cockpit draining. And a fresh clean of the diesel tanks

How did the boat behave? Well the kids & admiral played cards in the salon so I guess it wasn't too bad. That easy motion would have changed dramatically had we tried to do anything but a downwind course.
Anyway I was wet and miserable.

All our other "heavy weather" experiences were in 35-40kn constant in a Lagoon 410 in open ocean conditions similar to the video above. Never any issues, sometimes a quirky motion if in confused seas, sometimes a big bang followed by a big splash of water when a confused wave hit at the wrong angle but always safe and comfortable, except that its very loud when inside.

Toys_with_time · 07-03-2017, 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Toys,

Just out of interest, what engines did you have on the Lipari to make headway against 60 knot winds?

We took the upgrade option to 30HP a side. I had to work the engines to hold her on course and it's very slow progress as you don't have the weight momentum that a mono has so waves set you back more. At times we were making less than 1/2 knot headway. In open ocean I would have turned and run but we were caught going from one island to the next and it was the down draft off the mountains that accelerated the wind. 2 of the crew were novice sailors and 1 of them was happily reading a book during this ordeal. Once we made port (and Med mooring when we got there was another saga in itself as the harbour had 30 plus knots on the beam) the crew asked if that was normal sailing!!

TwT

rabbi · 07-03-2017, 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toys_with_time

We took the upgrade option to 30HP a side. I had to work the engines to hold her on course and it's very slow progress as you don't have the weight momentum that a mono has so waves set you back more. At times we were making less than 1/2 knot headway. In open ocean I would have turned and run but we were caught going from one island to the next and it was the down draft off the mountains that accelerated the wind. 2 of the crew were novice sailors and 1 of them was happily reading a book during this ordeal. Once we made port (and Med mooring when we got there was another saga in itself as the harbour had 30 plus knots on the beam) the crew asked if that was normal sailing!!

TwT

With wind coming from the mountains I suppose there was little to no fetch, so not much wave activity ?

We had that in Greece once with 45kn houling down Ithaca, an our Mahe could barely do a knot with 2x 18hp.
Not what I call heavy weather, as its just a blow wind in a sheltered area.

BigBeakie · 08-03-2017, 13:31

Here is a case of an experienced couple on their mono getting bashed by the sustained southerly we've been having on the Australian East coast for a few days now. It's been 25kts gusting 35 right on the coast, and much worse offshore. They lost their rudder, got knocked down, and called it quits & called for help 200 NM off Sydney.

Sailors rescued from waves the 'size of buildings' north-east of Sydney lucky to be alive - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Another nice thing about cats is redundancy, it can count for alot in bluewater cruising.

These are the conditions we were in a few years ago coming back from Lord Howe Is. in a 15 meter cat. Really BIG breaking seas. But we had fully enclosed helm, hydraulic steering, properly built epoxy western red cedar hulls, and we got bashed for 3 full days and nights with wind against East Australian current. A great lesson in what a seaworthy cat should be, and let me tell you, it should not be in a condomaran.

We forereached day and night hand steering, but the boat motion was pretty comfortable, nobody was seasick and everyone could sleep OK. The skipper was a lifelong mono guy, had built 6 boats including a beautiful 57' Radford aluminium mono that circumnavigated 4 times, this was his first cat, and he said there was absolutely no way we would have faired better in an equivalent mono.

I'm currently building a truly bluewater capable cat, just because of conditions like this.

daletournier · 08-03-2017, 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Here is a case of an experienced couple on their mono getting bashed by the sustained southerly we've been having on the Australian East coast for a few days now. It's been 25kts gusting 35 right on the coast, and much worse offshore. They lost their rudder, got knocked down, and called it quits & called for help 200 NM off Sydney.

Sailors rescued from waves the 'size of buildings' north-east of Sydney lucky to be alive - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Another nice thing about cats is redundancy, it can count for alot in bluewater cruising.

These are the conditions we were in a few years ago coming back from Lord Howe Is. in a 15 meter cat. Really BIG breaking seas. But we had fully enclosed helm, hydraulic steering, properly built epoxy western red cedar hulls, and we got bashed for 3 full days and nights with wind against East Australian current. A great lesson in what a seaworthy cat should be, and let me tell you, it should not be in a condomaran.

We forereached day and night hand steering, but the boat motion was pretty comfortable, nobody was seasick and everyone could sleep OK. The skipper was a lifelong mono guy, had built 6 boats including a beautiful 57' Radford aluminium mono that circumnavigated 4 times, this was his first cat, and he said there was absolutely no way we would have faired better in an equivalent mono.

I'm currently building a truly bluewater capable cat, just because of conditions like this.

Interesting, ive never had a hf before this boat. My girlfriend was playing with it ,learning how to use it and we heard the above unfolding, the skipper was calm and conducting himself well, glad there was a good outcome.

Sent from my vivo Y35 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

danielamartindm · 08-03-2017, 15:00

I know I'll be crucified for saying this, but just about any cat 38 feet and over is blue water capable, given the right preparation, crew, and outfitting. My cat sails better than I do.

**boatman61** · 08-03-2017, 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by danielamartindm

I know I'll be crucified for saying this, but just about any cat 38 feet and over is blue water capable, given the right preparation, crew, and outfitting. My cat sails better than I do.

Your 17ft over in your reckoning..