Cats from China . . . ?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by David M

I would not have any problem buying a catamaran from China provided the quality control was done by a non-Chinese boat building company of foreign origin with plenty of experience.

The problem is, how do you know FOR SURE that this is the case? The example I mentioned was an Australian company set up in China. They claimed to be overseeing the build process, yet the boat produced was of appalling quality. Fortunately the standard was obvious for anyone to see, and anyone who bought this boat should at least have some idea what they were getting themselves into.

The real concern would be where a boat may APPEAR have been finished to an acceptable standard, but what do you know about the actual build process?

[David M]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

The problem is, how do you know FOR SURE that this is the case? The example I mentioned was an Australian company set up in China. They claimed to be overseeing the build process, yet the boat produced was of appalling quality. Fortunately the standard was obvious for anyone to see, and anyone who bought this boat should at least have some idea what they were getting themselves into.

The real concern would be where a boat may APPEAR have been finished to an acceptable standard, but what do you know about the actual build process?

First, I don't even know if there will be a design that I like that will be made in China.

The proof will be in the product that comes out the factory doors. I don't want a Chinese junk...uh...I mean I don't want a junky Chinese product. I certainly won't be the first guy banging on the door to order a boat. Additionally, I am one of those curious geeky people who will take a mini vacation to the factory to see how the boats are being built before plunking down my deposit. If they won't let me see critical parts of their fabrication process then I won't be buying.

The builders structural warranty and probability of still being in business by the time the warranty expires will also be a major consideration. Regardless of who I buy from, it will not be a new design where there have been only few hulls that have been built.

I think thats a pretty safe way of buying from any yacht manufacturer. Do you?

[senormechanico]

"After grinding the area for the new beds and washing it down with acetone, he could see that area of the hull had been cored with newspaper!"

We used to have a Lord Nelson 35 which was a very well constructed boat. (At the time, they were being made in Taiwan.) When we redid the saloon upholstery, we found the original buttons were cloth covered bottlecaps!

Thankfully, that's the only thing we ever found which was on the cheesey side.

Steve B.

[delmarrey]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

When we redid the saloon upholstery, we found the original buttons were cloth covered bottlecaps!

And I thought the straw filled car sets from Mexico were bad!

[Stranded Mariner]

I live in China for 14 years now, and work in the Marine industry. I have very negative experiences with building boats in China, so have a few of my friends. There are very few products from China in general which are of acceptable quality.

My new boat is going to be built in South Africa. First of all the quality is guaranteed, and I know I am not going to be cheated. Secondly I don't want to spend any money in this country if I can avoid it.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Stranded Mariner

I live in China for 14 years now, and work in the Marine industry. I have very negative experiences with building boats in China, so have a few of my friends. There are very few products from China in general which are of acceptable quality.

My new boat is going to be built in South Africa. First of all the quality is guaranteed, and I know I am not going to be cheated. Secondly I don't want to spend any money in this country if I can avoid it.

And there you have it from someone who lives there and more experience than we do with it. Thank you for the post. Good luck on your boat building ventures SM

[ireaney]

Originally Posted by Stranded Mariner

I live in China for 14 years now, and work in the Marine industry. I have very negative experiences with building boats in China, so have a few of my friends. There are very few products from China in general which are of acceptable quality.

My new boat is going to be built in South Africa. First of all the quality is guaranteed, and I know I am not going to be cheated. Secondly I don't want to spend any money in this country if I can avoid it.

Maybe the Marine Market in China is not that good and people are concerned with warranties etc, but re quailty Bumfuzzle!!!! and I believe others, re warranty's and guarantees, Prout,PDQ, Jaguar Cats old name and several others, is your money really safe, are the warrantys on any of the boats really worth anything, only while the company is in business, and I think we are heading for a big recession which will see the marine industry hit really hard.
I agree about what somebody said earlier about the Multi Haven IMHO it was a non-starter before it got out of the moulds.
I am considering the Fusion40 which is an infused moulded catamaran kit which are now being moulded in Thailand under strict supervision of the Australian company, at least it will be assembled in the UK and built under my supervision and it has CE quality control and is 'A' rated.
If I were buying a new boat from anywhere at the moment, I would not part with my money until the boat was finished or title was passed over, to do this the best was is to pay by International Letter of Credit which means that the manufacturer is guaranteed his money and if needs be, can draw down against it from his bank, so if he is reputable and financially stable he will not argue over this, if he quibbles I would be very concerned.

[Adaero]

I was about to order a cat for delivery Oct/Nov 2008 last week and it was going to be a Leopard 46 from R&C. I recently returned from the BVI on a "try before I buy" charter. The boat had a number of niggling faults but nothing too serious and I was happy with the performance. That was all before the press release about the chinese partnership.

I work in manufacturing in the UK and have seen probably 75% of manufactured product moved to the Far East over the last 10 to 15 years. Yes, the quality used to be terrible but has improved but unfortunately they don't understand zero defect and the standard Westerners demand. If you order 100 components, 5 are probably going to be faulty. Instead of investigating why those 5 parts were wrong as we would have to here and fill out numerous corrective action reports they just seem to shrug their shoulders and send in another 5 parts. This is where the problem is, out of the 5 replacement parts 1 is still faulty. Over the last 2 years the work that went out there 10 years ago is slowly coming back as these companies are fed up with dealing with too many quality issues. The other major problem is with continuity of material supply. We receive regular material samples to check the specification against international standards. I have graph's ploting the variation in spec most of which drifts out of ISO limits. If you can't control raw materials then the chances of getting the finished product correct are pretty slim.

We all know how unreliable most marine equipment is and that is from European or US companies imagine a totally chinese built boat with a ripped off design of a winch for example.

What has stopped me placing this order is the brand presence problem. At this moment R&C have a well built product, not as good as some but on a par with Lagoon and FP (in my opinion). When product starts to appear from China and we get a few delamination problems, maybe a few major component failures the brand as a whole will be hit. I can plead with the market and tell them my boat is built in South Africa but it won't matter it will be a Leopard and quote "they are the ones that build that cheap Chinese cat". Would anybody buy a 5 year old ex-charter boat that was built in China?

As we know R&C might be privately owned but it's First Choice Marine (Moorings/Sunsail) that pull all the strings. I think we will see a reduction in overall cost of the product from China but it will still be pitched I would imaging around 10% cheaper than the equivalent FP or Lagoon. What R&C will have managed to do though is probably double their margins and that is what this is all about, BOTTOM LINE!!!!

One pissed off cat buyer
Adaero

[Stranded Mariner]

Originally Posted by David M

Other than Cheoy Lee out of Hong Kong, the Chinese really don't have any experience at building high quality yachts.

And even he screwed up big time with the latest megayacht 'Nero'. I was at Yantai Raffles yard a few months ago, and I am glad I don't have to sort out that mess.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by ireaney

Maybe the Marine Market in China is not that good and people are concerned with warranties etc, but re quailty Bumfuzzle!!!! and I believe others, re warranty's and guarantees, Prout,PDQ, Jaguar Cats old name and several others, is your money really safe, are the warrantys on any of the boats really worth anything, only while the company is in business, and I think we are heading for a big recession which will see the marine industry hit really hard.
I agree about what somebody said earlier about the Multi Haven IMHO it was a non-starter before it got out of the moulds.
I am considering the Fusion40 which is an infused moulded catamaran kit which are now being moulded in Thailand under strict supervision of the Australian company, at least it will be assembled in the UK and built under my supervision and it has CE quality control and is 'A' rated.
If I were buying a new boat from anywhere at the moment, I would not part with my money until the boat was finished or title was passed over, to do this the best was is to pay by International Letter of Credit which means that the manufacturer is guaranteed his money and if needs be, can draw down against it from his bank, so if he is reputable and financially stable he will not argue over this, if he quibbles I would be very concerned.

You make some good points. I would add to that by saying it would be wise not to buy the first few years of anything and do a wait and see stategy. I remember when the first Valiant yachts had terrible blisters due to a fire retardant that was added to their resin. Things like that can easily happen all the time....no matter how much supervision is available.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Adaero

I was about to order a cat for delivery Oct/Nov 2008 last week and it was going to be a Leopard 46 from R&C.

One pissed off cat buyer
Adaero

So you did not sign?

[Adaero]

So you did not sign?

No, unfortunately I didn't.
I really like the boat but after not being offered any deal at all (and I mean no discount, not even a free option on a $700,000 boat!!!!) and now the Chinese news I'm glad I didn't.

I'm now back to my shortlist of the Fastcat which I love but it's bloody expensive, or I go back to re-look at FP and Lagoon and remember why I scrubbed them off my shortlist in the first place?

Merry Christmas to everyone
Regards
Adaero

[Brandywine]

I am not sure it matters if you buy a cat from china or not just having it happen should help to push cost down for new cats or at the very least keep cost from rising to quickly…

[David M]

Wow...those have been some excellent points. It does not look too good for considering a boat made in China.

[TaoJones]

I posted an interesting (to me, at least) list of facts about China on another thread, and now see its applicability here. Rather than re-posting it, however, here's a link to that thread (it's post #21 there.)

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post120793

TaoJones