Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by simons

mikereed100,

Do you know anything about the catamaran? What is it? Does it have a forward cockpit? and how does the aft-cockpit look like? I think that it looks interesting.

Thanks.

Simon

Hi Simon,

The boat is mostly a custom design by a singularly clever and forward thinking fellow. It does have a forward cockpit, actually more of a "workpit" as there is no seating. This concept was later copied by M+M for use on the Gunboat designs . The aft cockpit is 6' deep by about 14' wide, actually more of a "lanai" as there is no line handling done from here.
Lots of pictures here: www.sailblogs.com/member/rumdoxy

Mike

[beiland]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

Hi Simon,

The boat is mostly a custom design by a singularly clever and forward thinking fellow. It does have a forward cockpit, actually more of a "workpit" as there is no seating. This concept was later copied by M+M for use on the Gunboat designs . The aft cockpit is 6' deep by about 14' wide, actually more of a "lanai" as there is no line handling done from here.
Lots of pictures here: www.sailblogs.com/member/rumdoxy

Mike

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mike aren't you the owner of Rum Doxy?

I just looked thru a lot of the photo gallery on that blog that was referenced, all the way back to the acquisition of the original vessel, and I must say you have done a marvelous job of resurrecting and modifying that vessel.

However I don't think anyone could claim that Gunboat's forward cockpit was copied from Rum Doxy. It was in fact Chris White who originated that forward cockpit idea.

There was another gentleman, Bill Mathers, a good friend of mine who took an early step in this direction as well. He had a 57 footer called Shearwater build by Gold Coast catamarans of St Croix, USVI in the early 1990's. Fortunately I have just discovered that they finally posted a whole series of photos of her on this website:
http://www.goldcoastyachts.com/yacht...Shearwater.pdf

Take a look at her great saloon and upper galley area as well.

I just ran across this subject thread so I'll have to read thru it more throughly in order to add other comments.

Brian Eiland
PS: I very much enjoyed you photos of Thailand cruising as well. I live there part time with my Thai wife, but up in the northern area.

[Kiwi.]

I've been surprised that there has been no discussion in this thread about forward cockpits until now; why is this, when the only significant catamaran flip in the last few years has been a Chris White Atlantic 57 (Anna) with a forward cockpit? I believe the forward cockpit was a direct contributor to the inversion of Anna. I cannot believe that people can be sailing in a situation where the only way of releasing a sheet in a squall or storm is to open a front door on an ocean going yacht. Not being able to release a sheet is crazy on a monohull, (where the worst outcome is just a knockdown), but on a cat it is certifiably insane when the end result is inversion.

[simons]

Mike,

nice job and I like your approaches.

- What is your experience with the double mainsheet setup?

- What do you think about the steering position? Are you able to keep lookout from there and can you see the mainsail?

- What do you think about the forward cockpit and isn't the door very exposed to rain or spray?

Love to learn your experience.

Simon

[mikereed100]

Brian,

Thanks for the kind words. You may be right about the origins of the forward cockpit. It's possible that I got it backwards.

The "Shearwater" is a beautifull boat. I couldn't get the link to work but will track it down later so as to see the rest of the pictures.

Mike

[mikereed100]

Thanks Simon,

In answer to your questions;

Double mainsheet:
So far I like it. I originally went with it because during the refit someone stole half the traveler track, but now I appreciate the wider sheeting angle and having 2 fewer lines to deal with in the cockpit. I plan to add a chainplate to each hull aft of the capshroud chainplates so that I can move the mainsheet even further to leeward when running.

Pilothouse steering:
It's really nice to have a protected place out of the sun, rain and wind. Most of our sailing is done with the hatch and door open so there is a nice breeze blowing through the cabin. Visibility is great, although not as good as cats like the Atlantics that have a wheel in the cockpit. The position is near the center of the boat so the motion is comfortable. There is a hatch overhead through which I can see the mainsail, although if I really want a good look around or to feel the wind the cockpit is one step away.

Forward cockpit:
I like the forward cockpit to the degree that it is a prerequisite to any cat I would own in the future, but like everything on a boat there are compromises.

The downsides include;
It can get wet when going to windward in winds over about 18 to 20 knots. In conditions like this we shut the door and hatch.
It makes it difficult to have a large saloon table in any but a very big boat. On my boat we have dispensed with the saloon table altogether and don’t miss it a bit. All our meals and social gatherings are in the aft cockpit. There is bar in the galley that will seat 4 if it's too wet or rough outside and in lieu of a setee we have a daybed and plan a platform that will hold 2 large beanbags.
As all sail handling occurs in a relatively small area, there can be a lot of spaghetti underfoot if one is not careful. We have a couple of bins for lines at each side of the mast and will be adding line bags behind the mast to help with this.
If I were lying to a sea anchor in breaking waves I would be concerned about the door and hatch. Both are very strong, but I am planning a way to lash the spare rudders across the cockpit if I ever find myself in this situation.

The main advantage to the forward cockpit to my mind is safety. It's really hard to overstate the feeling of security when standing in a waist deep pit for all sail and anchor handling. There are no steps to climb and the cockpit is one step away from the helm and the protection of the cabin. If it’s wet it’s easy enough to time entrance and exit to avoid spray. If it were really bad I suppose I could always go around the side and drop into the cockpit but this has not been necessary as yet. In fact, since I avoid going to windward in rough weather when I can, we have only rarely taken spray in the cockpit. 99% of our sailing is done with the door open.
The cockpit with it’s door and hatch act as a large wind scoop that keeps the cabin well ventilated.
The cockpit is the perfect place for a shower and is protected enough to use even in a marina.
A chair can be brought to the cockpit and makes a nice place to hang out underway.
The helm, galley and nav station are all adjacent. We can steer while seated at the nav station.
Kiwi has expressed a valid concern that the forward cockpit could be a liability in a squall and that in fact it may have contributed to the capsize of Anna, but I disagree. Like the crew of Anna, if I were concerned about capsize I would have no qualms about opening the door no matter how wet it was, and the sheets, outhaul and reefing clew stoppers are directly at hand. Moreover, Anna’s experience has not been lost on me and when around squalls, headlands or mountains the main is deeply reefed if not doused altogether.

Mike

[Kiwi.]

Mike, your point is a good one; the real issue is to never be too far from the sheets. I've been reading the thread on Lagoon 420 v 440 and I've been shocked at people who think they are in control of a sailing vessel, just because they can steer it. If you can't adjust or release the main and jib sheets within a couple of steps or seconds you're not in control, you're a passenger. Any fly bridge catamaran under sail, being steered from the main saloon, is definitely not under control.

[beiland]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

Brian,

Thanks for the kind words. You may be right about the origins of the forward cockpit. It's possible that I got it backwards.

The "Shearwater" is a beautifull boat. I couldn't get the link to work but will track it down later so as to see the rest of the pictures.

Mike

Were you able to finally make that connection?... I thought the link was still good.

Sorry to digrest from the fwd cockpit subject for a moment, but one of the photos of your vessel prompted me to ask another question. Am I seeing proturberances into the underwing areas in order to accomodate the steps into each hull??

If so, haven't you found these to be awful nosy underway in even a small seaway?

[mikereed100]

[QUOTE=beiland;711238]
Sorry to digrest from the fwd cockpit subject for a moment, but one of the photos of your vessel prompted me to ask another question. Am I seeing proturberances into the underwing areas in order to accomodate the steps into each hull??
QUOTE]

Brian,

I see what you mean, it does look like there are shelves in the underwing, but that is just an illusion from reflections on the gussets.
I don't think underwing protruberances are a good idea and would not put them on a boat of mine if I could avoid it.

I did manage to take a look at the Shearwater. A beautifull boat. I'm surprised that more designers aren't offering forward cockpit models. Bob Oram has them on a few of his designs, the smallest only 39'.
39′ Mango « Bob Oram Design

Mike

[mikereed100]

While perusing Bob Oram's site I just came across this:

"I know I go on about it but …
We have 4 boats with the fore and aft cockpit option and I for one would never have another bridgedeck boat without two cockpits. The advantages are too many to mention here, but the most important is simply safety. On ‘Mango’ I probably walked on the side decks 10 times in 3 years of use. Another safety feature was the ease and speed of putting a reef in the main. It was such a simple task that it was achieved single-handedly in about 3 minutes from easing the mainsheet to trimming it on again, without taking one vertical step and being ‘in’ the boat and secure at all times."

Apologies for belaboring the point.

Mike

[beiland]

Brian,

I see what you mean, it does look like there are shelves in the underwing, but that is just an illusion from reflections on the gussets.
I don't think underwing protruberances are a good idea and would not put them on a boat of mine if I could avoid it.
Mike

WOW I'm still confused by the illusion...guess I will have to look at it a few more times as I'm now 'self-programed' to see it another way.

Fwd Cockpits
To tell the truth I am not a real fan...it likes riding in a convertible car with no windshield...great when I was younger, but I really like being able to duck behind that bulkhead of the aft cockpit...especially in foul weather or cooler climates.

If you make accomodations for a fwd cockpit, likely in many instances you have to sacrifice saloon area or aft cockpit size. If you make it so it has some seating and/or a steering station then it takes up valuable area that might be utilized for the fwd big berths that might occupy some of that wing area.

Originally Posted by Oram

Another safety feature was the ease and speed of putting a reef in the main.

And of course I would prefer to have a 'mainsail' that didn't present such a problem at all....perhaps no 'mainsail' at all ...
Sail Propulsion - Revisiting a Mast-Aft Sailing Rig

Aftmast rigs??? - Page 7 - Boat Design Forums

Chris White's 57 capsize

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by beiland

And of course I would prefer to have a 'mainsail' that didn't present such a problem at all....perhaps no 'mainsail' at all ...

I was wondering when you would get around to mentioning your rig. I read with interest your work with the aft mast design a couple years ago on the boatdesign site. Do you have plans to build one anytime soon? I would love to see one in action!

Mike

[beiland]

Have you seen or heard of these motorsailing powercats being built over in Thailand...2 finished now for Hong Kong owners

HK40' - Power Sailing Catamaran.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by beiland

Have you seen or heard of these motorsailing powercats being built over in Thailand...2 finished now for Hong Kong owners

HK40' - Power Sailing Catamaran.

How well do they sail? They do look quite heavy. Not a reflection on the rig concept though.

[beiland]

I can only report what the builder sent me one time in the past...no updates since to me.

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by the builder

We launched our HK 40 aft mast , finally , after some adjustments .

I tested the boat only 2 time and we still don't have the main sail rigged (hopefully soon) . But I must say that I am extremely happy about the rig . The boat is fast , being a 10 ton displacement vessel , and I have seen 9.5 knts under sail , in the typical light wind of Pattaya Bay .

Very easy tacking and the boat is pointing in the wind extremely well . I need some more tests to provide some numbers , but let me say by now that the project is successful . A very nice design and a real good concept and idea!

The boat drags a lot of attention in the Marina !! We receive visitors every
day .

I started the construction of other 2 units , to be delivered in Bali and
to stay in Thailand