Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Adaero

Settingsail2009

Galley up (her decision not mine).

I find that most women prefer the galley up, while most men prefer it down. To me, down makes the most sense but when it came time to buy a boat, this was the biggest concern of hers and something I could easily give in on (for brownie points, of course ).

Originally Posted by Adaero

Settingsail2009
Cockpit on same level as Saloon with seating enough for 8.

I don't think I have been on a catamaran with a bridgedeck cabin that wasn't on the same level as the cockpit. Do you have an example? (just curious as to what this would look like or be accomplished)

Originally Posted by Adaero

Settingsail2009
Preferably not dagger boards as adjustment can be problematic when under even minor loads.

Three of the boats you are looking at below have daggerboards.

Originally Posted by Adaero

Settingsail2009
The 440 was my first choice until we got caught in a F9 when chartering the 410. I am not sure I would like to be stuck up on that fly bridge on my own in those sort of conditions but great when you get to warmer climates.[/FONT]

Did you experience any issues with the 410 in the F9?

Mark

[Tnflakbait]

I know this has already been addressed but Galley down will be no fun to cook in. It more like a puke hole.

[Adaero]

colemj

The cockpit level I am talking about is mainly to do with the door frame. The 410 had a cockpit draining well of 2ft x 18" just before the saloon door frame which was about 3" deeper than the rest of the cockpit. The door frame was then around 6" higher from that point and the saloon floor was the same as the rest of the cockpit floor. I must have tripped over the door frame a dozen times during the week and that was before a drink!!! My point is trying to find a passageway that has got the least number of steps and possible stumbling areas.

The Fast Cat has optional dagger boards but comes as standard with reinforced low aspect keels. I know the Dolphin has dagger boards so does the Catana but none of the others to my knowledge.

The 410 performed very well in 45 to 50 knot gusting winds. The only major problem was the track on the main hadn't been lubricated and wouldn't drop under it's own weight so having to clamber up on the saloon roof and physically pull it down wasn't much fun in those conditions. Overall it wasn't too bad as we only had to last for about 2 hours until we found a protected bay we could hide in until the worst of it passed but at no time did I loose any confidence in the safety of the boat. I am not sure of the exact bridge deck clearance on the 410 but in seas with less swell than that day it did seem to slam quite often and this was on a charter boat without all the luxuries.
I actually like the 410 apart from a few niggling little quirks that would probably drive me nuts over a period of a few years like the cockpit step above, the electrical panel being down in a hull, heads too small (I'm 6ft 2 and around 230lbs), not being able to stand at the helm without unzipping the bimini and hitting my head getting in and out the helm seat.
Regards

[shipofools]

Two boat that I think are worth considering are:

The Atlantic 42 at Chris White Designs

and

The Alibi 47 at Alibi 47 catamaran

I know both have daggerboards, but with modern designs, the possible damage to the boat of hitting something is minimized, and the idea of actually being able to go to go to weather outways the negatives in my opinion.

I am especially thrilled by the pilothouse design of the Atlantic. I can think of nothing more effective to longerterm effectivness on a cruise than being able to manage a boat without fighting the elements the whole time.

Also I am a believer in the galley down perspective for safety, but my wife prefers the galley up for entertaining and hosting.

Cheers,

[colemj]

Now I understand what you meant by the same level. My boat also has this well, but it is a bit longer toward the stern. By that I mean that you step into the well sooner. I have been on boats that have a short well like the Lagoon and find that it is a bit of an annoyance and a potential ankle breaker at first because you don't expect it to be there. I find the boats with a longer well like mine are more obvious that there is a step there.

However, having lived with this well for almost 4 years now, I think of it as a good design feature. It acts as a sump for water collection and traps a lot of sand/dirt before it gets into the cabin. On all of the boats I have been on (including mine), stepping into the well allows one to step into the cabin without ducking your head in the doorway. Or at least with minimal ducking, depending on how tall one is. One does have to step over the bottom door frame, but I find this better and more intuitive than ducking or cracking my head on the top of the frame.

Rest assured, this is one of those things that commits to unconcious memory very quickly and you never know it is there after a short period of time. Although I did find the Lagoon well to be simply too short and non-intuitive. But I bet even that would become invisible after a while.

I have always loved the Atlantic cats, but they are pricey. The Alibi looks interesting, but I would like to see one built first. A couple of years ago Aeroyachts was making a big splash about another catamaran that never saw the light of day after the first prototype. It doesn't look like the Alibi is even at the prototype stage. It also looks like it leans too far toward the racer catagory for me. Again, I think the Atlantic strikes a very good balance between performance and cruiser.

Mark

[Gordon]

The Orana has no well or step,same level floor from aft at boarding to saloon.Another with level floor cockpit thru to saloon is the Seawind 1160,this boat has the galley down,a very comfortable layout and a very good performing cat.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by LtBrett

Originally Posted by Lodesman
In what way is the motion reduced? I definitely see the other benefits of having the galley down, but I would have thought that being closer to the vertical and longitudinal axes, a galley up would have less motion.

Kevin


Well, you're both right. Vessels pitch and roll around their centers of gravity (G), which can be thought of as the pivot point of the pitch and roll axes. The point of least motion is approximately centerline on the roll axis and nearer to the stern on the pitch axis. Now the question is if you are galley up, are you closer to G? Perhaps. You are at most 5' above G in the salon. Each pontoon is perhaps 12' away from G, even if there is no vertical separation. So unless your galley is more than about 9 feet off center in the salon, it will move around less than a galley in the pontoon. Either galley up or down could be closer to G, depending on exactly where you locate the galley.

Brett

Actually the rule that a vessel pitches and rolls about its centre of gravity applies to a sphere. A cylinder will roll about it's centre of gravity, and that can be used as a guide to the rolling motion of some monohulls, but those with beamier, flatter shapes will act differently . With a cylinder, if you push one "side" down, the opposite side will rise by the same amount. Clearly it can be seen that most monohulls will reactly somewhat differently, and that catamarans will definitely react very differently.

If one hull is lifted by a wave, it doesn't cause the other to sink. In fact the vessel will tend to roll around the centreline of the stationary hull. In reality the roll centre of a catamaran is not a fixed axis.

Sailors who have been at sea in both galley-up and galley-down layouts do report that there is less motion in a galley down.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Tnflakbait

I know this has already been addressed but Galley down will be no fun to cook in. It more like a puke hole.

Not at all. In most cases the galley is open to the bridgedeck, and the cook is easily able to participate in conversations in the saloon - "from the shoulders up" There will typically be much more bench space (for instance my 44' boat will have two benches 2.5 metres long, comparable to many houses.) There is also space for over bench cupboards, which fit under the saloon seating, and along the outboard hull side.

IMHO the main downside is that when preparing snacks or cooking, the cook will be further away from the cockpit. However in reality, it's no worse than the majority of monohulls in this respect.

[Adaero]

Shipofools

I totally agree with your suggestion of the Alibi 47. For me it is probably one of the most exciting new developments for a number of years. Unfortunately the price tag of 750 Euro puts it in the same catagory as the Catana, too expensive for me!
Hull #1 build starts in July and they hope to be part of the ARC in November, I can't wait to see the daily figures and reports from that.
Regards

[snowleopard]

I started with a clean sheet so wasn't bound by what was available. I bought a stock hull design and worked the interior out myself so had to think everything through. Most of my ideas worked reasonably well. A spacious saloon with all-round visibility was top priority. I went for charts up, galley down but the galley is open-topped so the cook isn't isolated and with 10 ft of headroom the galley never feels cramped.

Not many posters have talked about the size factor but I think it is the most important when deciding on a boat for a long trip. Bearing in mind that you will be crossing oceans and having to take everything the sea throws at you it is essential the boat is up to the job. As stability of a multi varies with the 4th power of the size, big is best BUT a big boat can become an embarrassment in marinas and bigger boats carry heavier gear. I opted for a 40 footer which I can sail easily on my own but I had a trip in a 52 foot version and the gear was way too powerful for one person. Reefing was strictly a 2-man job.

If you are doing the classic tradewind route a boat as small as the Prout Event 34 is quite up to the job. We met a couple of them on the ARC and they managed fine. Once out of the tropics I would want 40ft plus and anywhere above 50°N/S a fair bit more than that.

For a tradewind circumnavigation you'll need an easily-handled downwind rig. That could be twin genoas (no need for poles). I wouldn't have a spinnaker at any price. Virtually everyone who carried one on the ARC managed to blow out at least one and if you get caught with one up in a tradewind squall you can be in big trouble. I Wouldn't fly a conventional mainsail unless you have an unstayed rig, e.g. Freedom or Aero rig. The dangers of an unplanned gybe are too serious.

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by Adaero

Preferably shaft drives not sail drives

Hey Adaero, thank you for your post. I've reshuffled my "list" and will be posting that shortly. I do however have one question: Why does almost everyone here want shaft drives insterad of saildrives?

Originally Posted by Adaero

Our opinion on current models

The cats you're looking at are slightly larger than the ones I'm looking at. I'm starting in the 38 foot range, working my way up to 44 foot. The brands are however the same, so I'll be commenting on them shortly.

[Stella Polaris]

I’ve reworked the list I started with. I only comment next to the changes from my original list.

Design features I want:
1. Size: 38 – 44 feet in length (Around 40 feet would probably be ideal, when thinking about maintenance and cost).
2. A high bridgedeck clearance (I’ve been told that 6% of LWL is good)
3. 360 degrees visibility of the outside when seated inside.
4. Good sailing performance.
5. Most lines run to cockpit (easy to sail single handed)
6. Outside helm protected from the elements (should be inside the cockpit), but with excellent visibility from it.
7. Around 30 hp engines
8. Easy access to engine compartments (ideally from the inside) with ample space to work on them from all angles.
9. A comfortable cockpit with plenty of space for at least 6 people around a table.
10. A good targa for solar panels, radar, GPS and dingy davits.
11. Deep anchor locker
12. 2 heads with short and direct runs
13. Galley up (My girlfriend has the final say)

Depending on lay-out and design I’m undecided on the following:
1. An inside forward facing nav station - I never used it much on my last mono, favoring the saloon table to spread out maps, but since I can keep watch from a forward facing one on a multi, maybe it’s more desirable now.

Things I don’t really want:
1. Daggerboards
2. Diesel Electric or Hybrid solutions for propulsion - I’m VERY interested in them. I think they are a fantastic step forward, but when I go circumnavigating I don’t want to be a guinea pig. Once this becomes a proven technology that’s reliable and easy to fix in odd corners of the World I’ll embrace it wholeheartedly.

The big question is: Which cats allow me to check off most of these points?

The cats I find the most interesting now are Fountaine-Pajots and Deans (though the latter are big cats). The Lagoons, Broadblues and Mantas are not without merit either. I certainly can’t complain about NOT having choices.

[Intentional Drifter]

Nice list. Now, which ones are you either (a) willing to give up, or (b) go way over budget to get?

I don't know of any boat that has all of these, but several that come close. If you have to keep it under $400K, then you're talking used and the list of possibles gets narrower still.

Overall, I'd say you're talking about a Manta. None of the Deans I've seen have a forward facing nav station, or 360 visibility from the salon. The older ones (the 40-footers) had too little bridgedeck clearance, too. The F-P 42 (the older one) would be a nice candidate (except for nav station), as well as the Lagoon 42 (the original TPI built).

Looking at new (or newer) boats, then you're talking about Lagoon 380 or 410 (have most of your list), F-P 38 or 40 (again, most of your list). Broadblues, all of them, are expensive.

Overall, I think it is time for you to get to a boat show, get some daysails in, take an extended class on a cat, do some charters, etc. Things that will let you focus in on what really works for you.

ID

[colemj]

I have a Manta 40, so let me address how I think this boat meets your criteria (I'm trying to be objective here, but I did buy the boat after considering many others, so it is difficult to not have a colored opinion):

1. Size: 38 – 44 feet in length (Around 40 feet would probably be ideal, when thinking about maintenance and cost).
Meets.

2. A high bridgedeck clearance (I’ve been told that 6% of LWL is good)
In the quantitative sense, the Manta's bridgedeck is low - it is spec'ed at 5% (24"), but in reality is less than this when loaded with fuel, water and options. However, the qualitative performance does not match the numbers. The Manta bridgedeck is a continuous smooth compound curve shape. Waves seem to travel under the boat and be smoothly curled back on themselves without slamming the bridgedeck. It rarely pounds and when it is hit by a wave, it is usually a wave that enters from an odd direction and "slaps" the hull.

3. 360 degrees visibility of the outside when seated inside.
Not quite this. The Manta has a watertight hatch companionway door rather than the traditional sliding glass door, so the visibility sternward isn't as extensive. I have never had this be an issue in operating the boat and, in fact, believe it to be a much more seaworthy and maintenance-free implementation. I have chartered many different catamarans with sliding doors and decided I hated them even though I liked the openess and visibility.

4. Good sailing performance.
Not the fasted catamaran, but a good performer. Some of the boats on your list are much more performance oriented (FastCat, Catana). We typically see 60-70% of windspeed from a close to a beam reach. It very easily goes to 8-9kts, can be pushed to 10kts and we have had it at 14kts once. I have sailed much worse performers (not going to list them in a public forum) and much better (Atlantic 40). To be fair, though, the Atlantic 40 carried 18gal fuel, 50gal water and little else. We carry 120gal fuel, 100gal water, a generator, two AC units, watermaker, 500# of batteries, full Corian throughout, etc. But even if stripped of all this, I still think the Atlantic 40 is the faster boat.

5. Most lines run to cockpit (easy to sail single handed)
The Manta is the best implementation of this you will find.

6. Outside helm protected from the elements (should be inside the cockpit), but with excellent visibility from it.
The Manta is the best implementation of this you will find. The hardtop design is unsurpassed.

7. Around 30 hp engines
Volvo MD2030's

8. Easy access to engine compartments (ideally from the inside) with ample space to work on them from all angles.
Yes.

9. A comfortable cockpit with plenty of space for at least 6 people around a table.
There are boats with bigger cockpits and large fixed tables. Our boat has a removable table and, in fact, we rarely use it. I have found fixed tables to be mostly always in the way when actually living on and sailing the boat. This is probably one criteria that is strictly relative - what might be big for one is small for another.

10. A good targa for solar panels, radar, GPS and dingy davits.
This is unsurpassed on the Manta. There simply does not exist a better implementation on any boat. It is integral with #6 above (and probably a bit detracting from #4).

11. Deep anchor locker
Two anchor lockers. Don't know how deep is deep, but I can get into them.

12. 2 heads with short and direct runs
Two heads. Runs are ~3-4' on one and 5-6' on the other.

13. Galley up (My girlfriend has the final say)
Galley up, and one of the best implementations of this - U-shaped with plenty of cupboards, drawers and storage. My GF also had the final say on this even though I wanted galley down, and this boat was the perfect compromise for us.

Depending on lay-out and design I’m undecided on the following:
1. An inside forward facing nav station - I never used it much on my last mono, favoring the saloon table to spread out maps, but since I can keep watch from a forward facing one on a multi, maybe it’s more desirable now.
I know I am supposed to want and need a proper nav table facing in some proper direction but, like you, I always favor the saloon table. This was true on my mono and even more so on the multi. Our boat has a good nav station located forward facing the port side with good storage underneath and room for instrumentation, but I always use the saloon table.

Mark

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by Intentional Drifter

Nice list. Now, which ones are you either (a) willing to give up, or (b) go way over budget to get?

Ha, yes, that's always the problem isn't it? We compile long lists knowing full well that we'll be cheking off some options and crossing out others. The most important thing to me is that I try to think through the value of the different options to my cruising. As long as I'm making conscious decisions about the sacrifices I'm ready to make, I'll be OK.

Originally Posted by Intentional Drifter

I don't know of any boat that has all of these, but several that come close. If you have to keep it under $400K, then you're talking used and the list of possibles gets narrower still.

I am painfully aware of this. If there is a will, there is a way! I have time on my side as well. I'm not rushed yet ...

Originally Posted by Intentional Drifter

Overall, I'd say you're talking about a Manta. None of the Deans I've seen have a forward facing nav station, or 360 visibility from the salon. The older ones (the 40-footers) had too little bridgedeck clearance, too. The F-P 42 (the older one) would be a nice candidate (except for nav station), as well as the Lagoon 42 (the original TPI built).

The forward facing nav station is one of the first things I'm willing to sacrifice. Mostly because I don't mind stepping outside, but 360 degrees visibility while seated is something I don't want to sacrifice.

Originally Posted by Intentional Drifter

Overall, I think it is time for you to get to a boat show, get some daysails in, take an extended class on a cat, do some charters, etc. Things that will let you focus in on what really works for you.

It's the next logical step. The nice thing now is that I'm starting to narrow in on the boat that will be as close to perfect as is possible for me. Now I just need to find the next big boatshow ...