Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

[D&D]

Originally Posted by georgetheleo

Without boards my boaty wouldnt be fun.

Horses-for-courses George. We're delighted you're having fun on your boat.

We have fun on our boat too, mini-keels and all the rest.

We sail upwind too, although very likely not pointing as high as you from what you say.

Is there any particular reason why you "never" sail dead downwind? Is it perhaps the risk of involuntary gybe? We quite enjoy the dead (or nearly anyway, say 170AWA) downwind stuff, with everything well braced/prevented of course...and we scoot at that angle too.

With respect though, "somewhat safer" may be a leap. We sail very safe, including plenty of big seas and big winds (in every direction!) in the past and hopefully many more 'blue water' miles ahead.

We very much agree with you, however, on being very selective about guests we welcome on board.

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Having a "fast" boat doesn't mean you MUST sail EVERYWHERE at 20+ kts!

The production cruising cat that sails 20+ knots on an average doesn't exist.

In this thread I'm talking about a boat to circumnavigate with, not to cruise around the Caribbean, or do day- and weekend- sailing. I'm talking about passagemaking. The boats will be loaded with supplies, fuel, water, extra anchors ++ I don't care what kind of boat you have, it won't be fast after that. Sure, some boats will be faster, in general the bigger the boat, the more it can distribute the load, but a 42 - 44 foot boat won't be a fast sailor with all of this on board. Rule number one of a performance cat is to keep her light. That's also why they are built lighter in order to keep the weight down and the performance up.

When I took my boat through the Panama Canal I went through with a Christ White Atlantic 42. She was a fast boat, there's no question about that, but she had a thin hull and just going through the Canal she suffered damage rubbing up against another boat. The other boat didn't have a dent, but the owner of the Atlantic was worried that the bulkhead on his had been pushed in. The owner was also very conscious about keeping her as light as possible and made plenty of sacrifices because of that.

I definitely agree with having a boat that will move in light airs, but it is by no means reserved for performance cats:

Originally Posted by D&D

Perhaps thanks to the 'square top' main that seems to extract a lot of power out of not much wind, but for whatever reason we move along very well in the light stuff, especially in flat conditions, including TWS <10kn and with SOG ~60% of TWS. So no 'speed machine', but definitely no need to turn on the engines!

Another point is that different people start their engines at different speeds. Some people crank on their engines if the speed drops below 5 knots, others at lower speeds. When we sailed across the Atlantic or the Pacific, if the wind completely abandoned us, we would fire up the "beast below", but would otherwise sail almost no matter how slow we were moving. As I said before: "What's the rush?"

Originally Posted by tamif27

Think of a long trip, like across the pond. That's a fair bit of difference, actually.

I've never set sail on any passage if I knew that it would be a beat. In fact on my entire 2.5 year sail from Norway to Australia I hardly ever had to sail to windward. Sure for some short periods, but I'd say that I used my gennaker 80 - 90% of the time. So the 2-5 degrees was a non-issue for most of the trip.

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I guess the real point is, the people who say "fast" boats are uncomfortable, most likely haven't been on one.

I owned one and mine was more comfortable than most other boats around, but she did cost a lot (at least for my budget) and is in the same range as the Catana. I consider them expensive boats. They are definitely more performance oriented, but the high performance suffers when you weight the boat down with all the extra gear you bring with you for long distance cruising.

Originally Posted by smj

I may be wrong but it seems it would be easier to repair or replace a daggerboard than to repair or replace a mini keel. No need to haul out.

I agree, but a mini-keel as found on Fastcats, FP, etc. will take a Hell of a lot more beating before they break compared to a daggerboard.

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by georgetheleo

I have a 36ft Catamaran with daggerboards. When going upwing in a breeze of 18mph it outpoints a condomaran about 20 degrees

This is like comparing a racecar to an RV. Is your cat equipped and ready to go on a circumnavigation, or at least do serious blue water cruising for extended periods? The point of this thread was to find that cat. A 36 ft cat is way too small for what I was looking to set sail in.

Originally Posted by georgetheleo

You may try to avoid sailing upwind-but in my experience many times there is no option and a upwind performing sailboaty is somewhat safer because of this ability.

I disagree, I can avoid beating by sailing a less direct route. That's the joys of cruising: I don't need to be anywhere at a given time. It's when you're pressed for time and you need to be somewhere that you need to beat... or getting into a port, which often seem to be located exactly where the wind is coming from, but in those cases I throw in a couple of extra tacks and sail as close as I can get and motor the rest of the way.

Originally Posted by georgetheleo

Id prefer a Outremer 44 even if it has brass skin fittings and bad wire!!!!:v iking: I dont want condo guests!!

Good luck with that! Why don't you start up a thread to show your contempt for the "condos" and you can rant about them there?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by SettingSail2009

The production cruising cat that sails 20+ knots on an average doesn't exist.

In this thread I'm talking about a boat to circumnavigate with, not to cruise around the Caribbean, or do day- and weekend- sailing. I'm talking about passagemaking. The boats will be loaded with supplies, fuel, water, extra anchors ++ I don't care what kind of boat you have, it won't be fast after that. Sure, some boats will be faster, in general the bigger the boat, the more it can distribute the load, but a 42 - 44 foot boat won't be a fast sailor with all of this on board. Rule number one of a performance cat is to keep her light. That's also why they are built lighter in order to keep the wight down and the performance up.

When I took my boat through the Panama Canal I went through with a Christ White Atlantic 42. She was a fast boat, there's no question about that, but she had a thin hull and just going through the Canal she suffered damage rubbing up against another boat. The other boat didn't even have a dent, but the owner of the Atlantic was worried that the bulkhead had been pushed in. The owner was also very conscious about keeping her as light as possible and made plenty of sacrifices because of that.

I definitely agree with having a boat that will move in light airs, but it is by no means reserved for performance cats:

Another point is that different people start their engines at different speeds. Some people crank on their engines if the speed drops below 5 knots, others at lower speeds. When we sailed across the Atlantic or the Pacific, if the wind completely abandoned us, we would fire up the "beast below", but would otherwise sail almost no matter how slow we were moving. As I said before: "What's the rush?"


I've never set sail on any passage if I knew that it would be a beat. In fact on my entire 2.5 year sail from Norway to Australia I hardly ever had to sail to windward. Sure for some short periods, but I'd say that I used my gennaker 80 - 90% of the time. So the 2-5 degrees was a non-issue for most of the trip.


I owned one and mine was more comfortable than most other boats around, but she did cost a lot (at least for my budget) and is in the same range as the Catana. I consider them expensive boats. They are definitely more performance oriented, but they the high performance suffers when you weight the boat down with all the extra gear you bring with you for long distance cruising.



I agree, but a mini-keel as found on Fastcats, FP, etc. will take a Hell of a lot more beating before they break compared to a daggerboard.

Firsly - sorry, but just because your boat was called a fastcat, didn't make it so.

Second, much of what you're saying is simply incorrect. There are plenty of cats which fully loaded for passagemaking can still sail fast. faster than a lot of the more heavily built cats do empty. A similar boat to mine averaged close to 10 knots for over 1000 miles, fully laden as part of a circumnavigation.

We're preparing for a 1000nm passage with 4 adults on board, we have almost all the gear we'll carry already aboard. A bit more food and maybe a few jerrycans of fuel is about all the extra stuff we'll need. We have the anchoring gear safety gear, sea anchor etc etc.. But on a close reach we can still sail at very close to windspeed - on just the main and jib.

And the fact that YOU never set out on a long beat doesn't mean NOBODY does it. In fact most passages up the red sea are long windward beats. I personally know more than one boat that has sailed across the Indian ocean eastward to Australia - a beat of well over 1000miles. Giving away 5 degrees or more would make that a much longer trip.

And you keep asking what's the hurry? Well if that's your approach, why even have sails and a mast? If you only ever go downwind, and don't care how slow, then save all that money and just drift. 24 miles a day should be quite manageable in just about anything....

[Stella Polaris]

[

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Firsly - sorry, but just because your boat was called a fastcat, didn't make it so.

She did sail 24 knots in a good blow once. I did 15 knots with her at least once, so while she might not have been fast fully loaded for cruising, she was still a fast cat.

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Second, much of what you're saying is simply incorrect. There are plenty of cats which fully loaded for passagemaking can still sail fast. faster than a lot of the more heavily built cats do empty. A similar boat to mine averaged close to 10 knots for over 1000 miles, fully laden as part of a circumnavigation.

That really doesn't tell us much, unless we know the windspeed, wind direction, wavestate, if there was current, what kind of sails he was using, how far he was planning to sail (if it was part of a 3000 nm as opposed to a 1000 nm passage he would be carrying more food, fuel, etc), how many people he had on board and so forth. On several passages I've had days were we were flying along, but have also had days without any wind.

If you ask your friend what his average is on all passages, I'd be surprised if he had stellar performance on every passage. Most people I speak to tend to land some place between 5 - 7 knots, which is where I landed as well.

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

And the fact that YOU never set out on a long beat doesn't mean NOBODY does it. In fact most passages up the red sea are long windward beats. I personally know more than one boat that has sailed across the Indian ocean eastward to Australia - a beat of well over 1000miles. Giving away 5 degrees or more would make that a much longer trip.

Of course not, but these days the Red Sea isn't the most popular sailing route, due to the "friendly" Somali pirates. Besides the Red Sea there really isn't that many passages on a "normal" circumnavigation where you'll have the wind on the nose half the time.
Doing the Indian Ocean eastwards is also going against the norm, so using that as an example of common practice is like sailing the Indian Ocean these days. Saying you know a boat that's done it is hardly going to be applicable to 99% of cruisers.
All the other boats that I sailed with in the Pacific, that continued westwards after Australia sailed around South Africa. They are all there now, spread out between Durban to St. Helena.

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

And you keep asking what's the hurry? Well if that's your approach, why even have sails and a mast? If you only ever go downwind, and don't care how slow, then save all that money and just drift. 24 miles a day should be quite manageable in just about anything....

A fellow Norwegian did that with Kon-Tiki and proved the a raft works well. He sailed across the pacific logging 36 miles a day. I wager his boat was a lot cheaper than yours
Seriously though, let's try to be serious: a raft? ... really? So just because I've sailed halfway around the globe and have found that in my experience high performance isn't that important to me, then you think my next logical step is using a raft. Awesome!

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by D&D

Horses-for-courses George. We're delighted you're having fun on your boat.

We have fun on our boat too, mini-keels and all the rest.

We sail upwind too, although very likely not pointing as high as you from what you say.

Is there any particular reason why you "never" sail dead downwind? Is it perhaps the risk of involuntary gybe? We quite enjoy the dead (or nearly anyway, say 170AWA) downwind stuff, with everything well braced/prevented of course...and we scoot at that angle too.

With respect though, "somewhat safer" may be a leap. We sail very safe, including plenty of big seas and big winds (in every direction!) in the past and hopefully many more 'blue water' miles ahead.

We very much agree with you, however, on being very selective about guests we welcome on board.

I say somewhat safer because in any sailboat-in my opinion of course-a more 'weatherly' boat can get into a port or safe anchorage easier in case of emergency such as a typhoon or big storm or breakdown or crew illness or revoilt or running out of beer or opium or both diesels sputtering, running out of fuel---- etc etc--- a faster boat would also be safer in this regard too. Dead downwind I dont have a spinnaker , just a tri radial gennaker and the main is restricted by the backstay so by bearing off lt least 25 deg the speed icreases a lot.

[geoleo]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Firsly - sorry, but just because your boat was called a fastcat, didn't make it so.

Second, much of what you're saying is simply incorrect. There are plenty of cats which fully loaded for passagemaking can still sail fast. faster than a lot of the more heavily built cats do empty. A similar boat to mine averaged close to 10 knots for over 1000 miles, fully laden as part of a circumnavigation.

We're preparing for a 1000nm passage with 4 adults on board, we have almost all the gear we'll carry already aboard. A bit more food and maybe a few jerrycans of fuel is about all the extra stuff we'll need. We have the anchoring gear safety gear, sea anchor etc etc.. But on a close reach we can still sail at very close to windspeed - on just the main and jib.

And the fact that YOU never set out on a long beat doesn't mean NOBODY does it. In fact most passages up the red sea are long windward beats. I personally know more than one boat that has sailed across the Indian ocean eastward to Australia - a beat of well over 1000miles. Giving away 5 degrees or more would make that a much longer trip.

And you keep asking what's the hurry? Well if that's your approach, why even have sails and a mast? If you only ever go downwind, and don't care how slow, then save all that money and just drift. 24 miles a day should be quite manageable in just about anything....

Very funny last 2 paragraphs LOLOLOL

[geoleo]

Everybody always loves their current boat

[geoleo]

All women everywhere are jealous of their husbands boat-no exceptions ( few women will admit this)

[dirkdig]

Would not go anywhere in a boat under 40 ft!

[tamicatana]

Originally Posted by SettingSail2009

The production cruising cat that sails 20+ knots on an average doesn't exist.

Ever heard of the Gunboat? It would take a crack crew, but I'd bet on that horse

[smj]

Originally Posted by dirkdig

Would not go anywhere in a boat under 40 ft!

Why not?

[dirkdig]

Most of them are not that comfortable for me.
Plenty seaworthy but over the 40 Mark in most you get a little less of the hobbyhorse action,just a bit more preferred.

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by tamif27

Ever heard of the Gunboat? It would take a crack crew, but I'd bet on that horse

Isn't that the really expensive boat built in SA that pretty much only someone with a deep purse could afford?
Yeah, I've been on board three and chatted to their crews ... Though they fly along under the right circumstances, they do not on an average log 480+ nm per 24 hours. Feel free to bet on that horse, but don't expect to win.

[Teeto]

Good luck on that passage 44cruisincat, . Heading east or north from the Clarence?