Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

[Tnflakbait]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Not at all. In most cases the galley is open to the bridgedeck, and the cook is easily able to participate in conversations in the saloon - "from the shoulders up" There will typically be much more bench space (for instance my 44' boat will have two benches 2.5 metres long, comparable to many houses.) There is also space for over bench cupboards, which fit under the saloon seating, and along the outboard hull side.

IMHO the main downside is that when preparing snacks or cooking, the cook will be further away from the cockpit. However in reality, it's no worse than the majority of monohulls in this respect.

I was talking more about the ability to see the world around you. Some people find this reasuring if they get sick. As far as space is concerned it is a good solution. If you talk about a performance cruiser the hull can become uncomfortable at speed. Vibration and the sound of water rushing by at 15 knots can be unpleasant compared to a bridgedeck. Of course nowadays 15 knots is crazy onboard a Condomaran. All boats are different, but on my boat if you are in a hull broad reaching in a 20 kt breeze it sounds like you are on a freight train! ... I'm sure this doesnt apply to all cats.

[Kapena]

If they are sick then they aren't the ones doing the cooking and it doesn't matter if the galley is up or down to them.

[Strygaldwir]

Are you buying a new boat? I had my heart set on a Privilege 37. It took me 8 months to find one that was only slightly expensive. The point being it may be difficult to find the boat you want, unless your willing to pay something of a premium.

[islandflyer]

Yo,

I vote for galley down, as more likely to afford a place to park yer butt while she bops (underway of course). That is, the assumption is that the galley is more narrow if below.

Mike

[Gordon]

When able I will post photos of the new Orana 44, with galley up, forward facing nav. station,no step cockpit thru saloon, all lines to one point near helm, flat and clear on walk around, high bridge deck etc.etc....

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by colemj

I have a Manta 40, so let me address how I think this boat meets your criteria

Hi Mark, Thank you very much for your posting. The information you provided was VERY useful and seconds what another Manta owner wrote me (he's currently in New Zealand with his Manta 42). Mantas are definitely near the top of my "must see & sail" list now.
The things I'm interested in experiencing first hand are the things that diverge from my list: visibility, bridgedeck clearance and how I like the cockpit. Naturally I'm also looking forward to seeing how it sails.
Out of curiosity, in your view, how different is the Manta 40 from the Manta 42?

Originally Posted by Strygaldwir

Are you buying a new boat?

I would love to buy a new boat, but I don't think my budget ($400,000) will allow it. Luckily there are many well kept used boats on the market and with patience I hope to find the right one. Like Intentional Drifter says: I need to go to boat shows, do test-sails and charters, to find which of the short listed boats suits me best. Then make a decision. My house is already put up for sale, so I am committed, but as I'm not living there at the moment, it's no problem to sell it and wait till I find the right boat.

Right now I'm looking closely at Mantas, Broadblues, Deans and Fountaine-Pajots. We'll see. I've received glowing reports from owners on all of them, but it's always nice to hear more from different people, in order to paint a fuller picture of pros and cons.

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by Gordon

When able I will post photos of the new Orana 44, with galley up, forward facing nav. station,no step cockpit thru saloon, all lines to one point near helm, flat and clear on walk around, high bridge deck etc.etc....

I look forward to seeing it. The only thing I'm unsure about on the Orana is the "tanning area" of the cockpit. It's a new idea. I'm curious to see how it looks and functions in everyday use.

[Serrano]

Andreas

You certainly started something with tis thread and the poll! I've been following both - lots of great stuff.

Here are my thoughts based on the relatively small experience of 2000 offshore miles in my Seawind 1000, plus 2 yrs of coastal and bay cruising. And a bit of time on a Lagoon 380 and a Seawind 1160.

Based on the revised design features u want:
1. Size: I wouldn't go more than 40ft, or prob 38ft. I like my 33 ft Seawind - can sneak into all sorts of tight dock spaces. This is hard once you get much over 38 ft. Length is not the problem - width is, but that comes with length (but note the Seawinds are wide for their length, which I like - very stable)
2. A high bridgedeck clearance - agree, but it needs to be combined with buoyant hulls. Everything will slap sometimes, but some cats are terrible. Much more of a problem in steep chop in shallow seas, not in big ocean swells
3. 360 degrees visibility of the outside when seated inside - nothing, repeat nothing, beats the Seawinds for this. I love it.
4. Good sailing performance - if a modern cat doesn't sail reasonably fast, u can be sure it won't be a good sea boat either; but avoid cats with superlight or very fine hulls
5. Most lines run to cockpit (easy to sail single handed) - yep, but not important for lines you never use, even though lots of modern yachts put everything to the cockpit
6. Outside helm protected from the elements (should be inside the cockpit), but with excellent visibility from it - absolutely; couldn't imagine being offshore in bad weather perched on the "high seat" that some cats have!
7. Around 30 hp engines - yes, but then again my 9.9 Yamaha outboards work fine in 98% of situations
8. Easy access to engine compartments (ideally from the inside) with ample space to work on them from all angles - yes
9. A comfortable cockpit with plenty of space for at least 6 people around a table - at least; we live in our cockpit - down below is just for cooking, sleeping and storage!
10. A good targa for solar panels, radar, GPS and dingy davits - cats do these so well
11. Deep anchor locker - yep
12. 2 heads with short and direct runs - 2 heads for 2 people is more than I'd worry about, but great if you've got it
13. Galley up (My girlfriend has the final say) - this is clearly a personal preference, but I like the galley down. Really opens up the space in the cockpit, has lots of storage, great views while cooking of the passing waves, you can still communicate well with everyone in the cockpit (even if you can't see them), adds a bit of variety (since we live in our cockpit), and is much better in seriously bad weather (not just less movement, but smaller space so you can brace yourself safely and comfortably).

1. An inside forward facing nav station - I agree with yr thoughts; we use the cockpit table; there's lots of space around the cockpit to put charts when yr eating

Things I don’t really want:
1. Daggerboards - these are great for beaching and performance, but I see them more a just another thing to deal with when yr short handed, so I'd stick with stub keels
2. Diesel Electric or Hybrid solutions for propulsion - absolutely agree; never be the guinea pig for anything important while cruising!

I've got no association with Seawind (other than owning one), but I do think they are a fantastic seaboat (hull shape, good bridgedeck clearance, lots of stability from big beam) and they use space remarkably well, without turning into a condomaran.

If you are going to spend a lot of time offshore, you'd want something bigger than my 1000, and if yr going to spend a lot of time in cold areas, you might want a different style of cat. But if these factors are only going to be a small part of yr cruising life, then you should choose a boat for the 95% of what yr doing, not the 5%. Of course, its got to be able to handle the 5%, but if that requires a little less comfort for a short period, I'd trade that off against more comfort for a long period (if that makes any sense!).

Charles

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by SettingSail2009

Right now I'm looking closely at Mantas, Broadblues, Deans and Fountaine-Pajots.

I'm going to scratch Dean off my list, because of poor visibility when seated inside. You basically need to be standing to see out the windows. Though the windows are large and let a lot of light in, unless you can see out while seated it's "just" like being in a mono-hull.
This also eliminated the largest cat off my list, so now I'm focusing on the 38 - 42 ft. range. I'm down to 3 brands: Manta, Broadblue and Fountaine-Pajot.

[Serrano]

Andreas

You certainly started something with tis thread and the poll! I've been following both - lots of great stuff.

Here are my thoughts based on the relatively small experience of 2000 offshore miles in my Seawind 1000, plus 2 yrs of coastal and bay cruising. And a bit of time on a Lagoon 380 and a Seawind 1160.

Based on the revised design features u want:
1. Size: I wouldn't go more than 40ft, or prob 38ft. I like my 33 ft Seawind - can sneak into all sorts of tight dock spaces. This is hard once you get much over 38 ft. Length is not the problem - width is, but that comes with length (but note the Seawinds are wide for their length, which I like - very stable)
2. A high bridgedeck clearance - agree, but it needs to be combined with buoyant hulls. Everything will slap sometimes, but some cats are terrible. Much more of a problem in steep chop in shallow seas, not in big ocean swells
3. 360 degrees visibility of the outside when seated inside - nothing, repeat nothing, beats the Seawinds for this. I love it.
4. Good sailing performance - if a modern cat doesn't sail reasonably fast, u can be sure it won't be a good sea boat either; but avoid cats with superlight or very fine hulls
5. Most lines run to cockpit (easy to sail single handed) - yep, but not important for lines you never use, even though lots of modern yachts put everything to the cockpit
6. Outside helm protected from the elements (should be inside the cockpit), but with excellent visibility from it - absolutely; couldn't imagine being offshore in bad weather perched on the "high seat" that some cats have!
7. Around 30 hp engines - yes, but then again my 9.9 Yamaha outboards work fine in 98% of situations
8. Easy access to engine compartments (ideally from the inside) with ample space to work on them from all angles - yes
9. A comfortable cockpit with plenty of space for at least 6 people around a table - at least; we live in our cockpit - down below is just for cooking, sleeping and storage!
10. A good targa for solar panels, radar, GPS and dingy davits - cats do these so well
11. Deep anchor locker - yep
12. 2 heads with short and direct runs - 2 heads for 2 people is more than I'd worry about, but great if you've got it
13. Galley up (My girlfriend has the final say) - this is clearly a personal preference, but I like the galley down. Really opens up the space in the cockpit, has lots of storage, great views while cooking of the passing waves, you can still communicate well with everyone in the cockpit (even if you can't see them), adds a bit of variety (since we live in our cockpit), and is much better in seriously bad weather (not just less movement, but smaller space so you can brace yourself safely and comfortably).

1. An inside forward facing nav station - I agree with yr thoughts; we use the cockpit table; there's lots of space around the cockpit to put charts when yr eating

Things I don’t really want:
1. Daggerboards - these are great for beaching and performance, but I see them more a just another thing to deal with when yr short handed, so I'd stick with stub keels
2. Diesel Electric or Hybrid solutions for propulsion - absolutely agree; never be the guinea pig for anything important while cruising!

I've got no association with Seawind (other than owning one), but I do think they are a fantastic seaboat (hull shape, good bridgedeck clearance, lots of stability from big beam) and they use space remarkably well, without turning into a condomaran.

If you are going to spend a lot of time offshore, you'd want something bigger than my 1000, and if yr going to spend a lot of time in cold areas, you might want a different style of cat. But if these factors are only going to be a small part of yr cruising life, then you should choose a boat for the 95% of what yr doing, not the 5%. Of course, its got to be able to handle the 5%, but if that requires a little less comfort for a short period, I'd trade that off against more comfort for a long period (if that makes any sense!).

Charles

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by Serrano

You certainly started something with tis thread and the poll! I've been following both - lots of great stuff.

Hi Charles. It's the people that respond here that provide the great stuff. I'm very grateful for all the info I'm getting.

Originally Posted by Serrano

Here are my thoughts based on the relatively small experience of 2000 offshore miles in my Seawind 1000, plus 2 yrs of coastal and bay cruising. And a bit of time on a Lagoon 380 and a Seawind 1160.

Through the website KatieKat I've actually read quite a bit about the Seawind 1000. I really appreciate the analysis you posted, because it looks directly at what I'm looking for and measures it up to your cat. In the end I think your cat is a too small for my needs, so I'm going for one in the 38-42 range. I've had a long look at the Seawind 1160. It has several items on my list and probably the nicest looking galley down I've seen on a cat. In the end, what made me decide against it, was the big opening between cockpit and saloon. Many love this feature, but it's not for me on the cat I want to buy. The 1160 is also a bit too expensive for me, so it kind of worked out nicely in that regards as well.

Originally Posted by Serrano

Everything will slap sometimes, but some cats are terrible.

I'd like to find out which cats or more prone to slapping than others, and vice versa.

Originally Posted by Serrano

If you are going to spend a lot of time offshore, you'd want something bigger than my 1000, and if yr going to spend a lot of time in cold areas, you might want a different style of cat. But if these factors are only going to be a small part of yr cruising life, then you should choose a boat for the 95% of what yr doing, not the 5%. Of course, its got to be able to handle the 5%, but if that requires a little less comfort for a short period, I'd trade that off against more comfort for a long period (if that makes any sense!).

Good point. When I first started looking I was all for a 44 foot catamaran, but it's slowly creeping downwards. We'll see where I end.

[Jeannius]

Originally Posted by SettingSail2009

I'm going to scratch Dean off my list, because of poor visibility when seated inside. You basically need to be standing to see out the windows. Though the windows are large and let a lot of light in, unless you can see out while seated it's "just" like being in a mono-hull.
This also eliminated the largest cat off my list, so now I'm focusing on the 38 - 42 ft. range. I'm down to 3 brands: Manta, Broadblue and Fountaine-Pajot.

If you've got $400k then you should include Privilege in your list. In fact, you can scatch everything else off your list and just buy a Privilege 435 or 395 depending on which size you want and how new you want it to be.

[schoonerdog]

You'd mentioned being a circumnavigating cat. As you know by now, cats are sensitive to weight. Smaller catamarans have problems carrying the fuel and water needed for extended time offshore. To cross the pacific you are typically looking at 25 day passage times without landfall for the 3000 mile route starting from the galapagos. An 38 FP has 90 gallon water tanks, and 45 gallons of fuel. 45 gallons of fuel isn't very much for a transpacific boat. Also, unless you want to spend $2 per ft per day at a marina, you will be anchoring out. I would concentrate on getting a catamaran which is large enough to be able to hold the tankage you need while not becoming an unwieldy barge because you've sunken it with the food, fuel and water you will need for long passages. I sailed a PDQ 36 and cruised it extensively for years, it was wonderful for island hopping, fine offshore, but it simply didn't have the load carrying capacity needed for doing a transatlantic trip, let alone a transpacific trips without becoming dangerously overweighted. The ONLY way to make it have that load carrying capacity would have had to give it fat hulls and which would then have drastically reduced it's ability to point. Also, for such a trip with minimum of two people, it would require several hundred pounds of food, further sinking the boat. There are certain laws of physics all cats must follow. If their hull beam vs length becomes less than 11 to one, they suffer in their ability to sail and to point. Manta is 12 to 1 for hull/beam ratio instance and that translates into its ability to sail well. For transatlantic boat which are looking at a 1600 mile passage I wouldn't go below a 38 ft cat, for transpacific cats, I would look at boats that start around 40 ft.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by SettingSail2009

Out of curiosity, in your view, how different is the Manta 40 from the Manta 42?

18 inches

The 42 was made by adding 18 inches to the sterns. While this allows for a bit more weight carrying ability (think larger dingy and outboard) and possibly slightly better sailing qualities, the boat is exactly the same everywhere else. The main quantifiable difference between the two is in outfitting and finish. As the boat evolved, the systems and options offered also evolved and increased. So the 42 boats may have more goodies and different interior finishes. The 42 also gained an inch or so more headroom in the main saloon by raising the cabin top. Manta are very good at continually evolving their boat - almost on a boat by boat basis. So the difference between the last 40 made and the first 42 is much less than the difference between the first 42 and the next one coming off the line.

BTW, I didn't mean to imply that the Manta's cockpit was small - just that I have been on a lot of catamarans with much larger cockpits.

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by SettingSail2009

I'd like to find out which cats or more prone to slapping than others, and vice versa.

I have sailed several catamarans that slapped to the point of driving me crazy. I don't want to list specific models here, but I can give you my observations of bridgedeck design features they possessed:
1. flat surfaces
2. protruding bits that were recessed (processed?) out to allow for interior steps, passages or furniture.
3. vertical surfaces on the underside
4. bridgedeck carried too far forward
5. hard chine carried aft just above waterline (this produces a low-grade gentle slapping all night that starts out unnoticable and ends up like a Chinese water torture by 4am.

Some of these features were on boats that had high bridgedeck clearance, so absolute clearance height isn't the whole story.

Mark