Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by Cesar

For SettingSail2009:


Un punto a tener en cuenta es la capcidad de carga del barco.
Osea: la diferencia entre el despalzamiento en vacío y el desplazamiento máximo.
Un catamarán de 12 metros, te tendrá una capacidad de carga de unos 2.500 Kg. ; esto resulta insuficiente para circunnavegar el planeta. Hay mucho equipo que poner en un barco antes de zarpar.
A partir de 4.000 Kg. podemos decir que es un barco suficiente para circunnavegar.

Un saludo: César.

Hi Cesar. Loading capacity is very important. The trick is finding the cat that allows you to bring the gear you need without sacrificing too much sailing performance. I think pretty much any cat you add 4000 kg of gear to will see a drastic drop in performance. Which cats in the 40 foot range do you think this would not be a problem for?

[Cesar]

Hola Andreas:

Lo que intento decir es que un catamaran de 12 metros me parece un poco justo para cincumnavegar. La carga mínima que tendras que poner en tu barco (incluyendo combustible, agua, viveres, efectos personales y equipo de navegación) será de 2.500 Kg.; por lo que en un catamarán de 12 metros irás al limite de su capacidad. Por supuesto que depende del presupuesto que se disponga para la compra del barco, pero a partir de 43 ó 44 pies, creo que es donde empiezan las opciones de un catamarán con el que dar la vuelta al mundo.
Yo, compré en 2003 un Lavezzi 40 (FP's); mi intención era equiparlo para dar la vuelta mundo. Pero lo he visto un poco justo; no quiero decir con esto que no sea valido para cincumnavegar; el barco es muy bueno, resistente, cómodo, fácil de navegar, etc... , pero para vivir unos años en un barco, te planteas equiparlo con una serie de comodidades de las que disfrutas a diario (y si puedes, ¿porqué renunciar a ellas?); entonces piensas en el generador electrico, en la desaladora, en el aire acondicionado, etc... y si sumas todo lo que pesan (además de buscarle un sitio para colocarlos) lo que antes te parecía suficiente, ahora empiezas a verlo un poco escaso.
En definitiva, la desición que he tomado ha sido vender mi Lavezzi 40 y comprarme un nuevo Salina 48 (también FP's). Hasta Marzo de 2008 no me lo entregarán.
Cargar el Salina 48 con 3.000 ó 3.500 Kg. no supone poner al limite la capacidad de este catamarán, pues admite una carga de 4.500 Kg.; con lo que su funcionamiento no se verá comprometido.
Aquí, en España, los astilleros de catamaranes que mas se ven son los Lagoon y los Fountaine Pajot; en menos medida los Privelege. De los Catana no digo nada porque su precio no me ha permitido ni tan siquiera pensar en ellos.
Creo que, de estos astilleros, hay varios modelos que son adecuados para cincumnavegar. Desde un Belice 43 hasta un Privelege 495 (este quizás sea un poco caro) tienes bastantes barcos donde elegir.

Mucha suerte en tu decisón. Un saludo.

César.

[Jeannius]

Originally Posted by SettingSail2009

How high is the the clearance in actual numbers?
Do you know the hull/beam ratio?
This is the point I need to test, because most people put the Privilege in the same category as the Prout and say it is a solid, but slow cat.
What are normal daily runs for you?
Good boats are tough to find.

1) I don't know the actual numbers for the clearance but here is a link to a photo that shows how much there is... http://www.sailbvi.net/images/WhiteBayJeannius.jpg Scaling off the photo... beam is known to be 23ft it looks as if the clearance is between 3ft and 3.5ft. I do know that the 10ft Caribe dinghy and 15hp Yamaha outboard can pass underneath the boat if that helps.

2)For the 435 Easycruise Length overall is 44ft 2 inch, length at waterline 42ft, beam 23ft 2inch. Draft is 4ft 5 inch. Standard 435 about 9 inch shorter but same beam.

3)People who think of Privileges as slow are thinking about the earlier Jeantot designs. The 395, 435 and 465 where all designed by Marc Lombard who hads designed Open 60 monos and the French 60ft Multihull class. He says in the Privilege design brouchure...

"Take the example of a Privilege 435 sailing in 25 knots of true wind at 130 degrees, under genoa and main: at full load, or 14 tonnes, with fixed propellers and very dirty bottoms, the speed will be about 10knots. For the same boatlightened to 10.7 tonnes, with Maxprop propellers and with very clean bottoms, the speed would exceed 16 knots. But in the same conditions an experienced crew would be flying an asymmetric spinnaker and would be exceeding 21 knots"

There is a polar diagram available at Alliaura It can take a while to find but if you go to Privilege, 445 (same boat as 435 but new name), specification and then Polar it is there. A bit difficult to see but it has 3 lines at 10, 15 and 20 knots wind and the wind angles are true, not apparent.

3) Daily runs.... We completed the ARC doing 2900 nm in 17 days at an average of 7.2 knots. We regularly did 180 mile runs just under genoa and main. A friend of mine has also just done the ARC in an almost identical boat and took 16 days and had a couple of 200 nm days. Winds were stonger in 2006 than when I did it in 2002. I recently went BVI to Martinique which was hard on the wind and we completed the 320nm in just over 2 days at around 6.5 average.

[Strygaldwir]

While I am sitting in the salon, I can't see forward. The windows are a little too high. I have to stand before I can see. In all other directions the visibility is great. But, I really don't do watch keeping from inside. During the day, I spend the great majority of the watch sitting in front, on the tramps. GREAT view from there! The only thing that would make it absolutely perfect is one of the autopilot remotes. Then I wouldn't even have to get up when I reached a waypoint turn.

During the night, I sit in the cockpit. I stand every 20 minutes or so to make sure I am clear in all directions. Usually the headsail blocks my view forward, thus the moving. I have radar that is slaved to my nav station and the monitor is mounted on a swivel arm. I can sit in the salon and monitor the radar picture, but I am far more comfortable outside during those night passages. The problem I have noted is that if I am staring at the screens, it doesn't do much for my night vision. Even on lower light levels, I have to put the cover on the display at the helm. The one in the salon, I turn off, unless it is raining or very poor visibility.

The 37/395 are very NICE boats. There are probably only 3 things that I concider short comings. In the master cabin, you have to crawl over the feet of your sleeping partner, if they sleep on the outside to get in and out. There is no convient place to mount a dive compressor. I don't have a second anchor mounted in the bow. I currently have to remove my mounted anchor and swap out the alternate anchor. This is a configuration issue and I will probably fix it in the future.

Oh! There is an another. I hate my nav station seat. It doesn't have a back on it so sitting in it for long times is unpleasant. It also is fixed to the sole and its placement makes getting in and out of the table sitting unpleasant. One of these days I'll figure out an alternative. I have seen some folks cut it down, but that doesn't fix the back problem.

Sailing is okay. In light winds I don't go fast at all. I point almost as well as a mono. I just come down a bit and make better speed. If I motor-sail, all bets are off. I have yet to see a mono less than about 46 feet that can keep up with us while we are on engines. We do tend to be heavily loaded while we are cruising. When we take all that extraneous equipment off, our waterline comes up at least an inch or two. Big sailing difference, probably fixable by going to a bigger boat! (I'd love a 495)

Good boats, good trade-offs. A tad on the expensive side, but VERY high quality. Great support from the factory, not so good from the US dealer.

Good luck

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by Frank Artville

HIGH BRIDGE DECKS:

Pros:
Clearance of waves when sailing to weather
More interior volume in the hulls

Cons:
More windage:
Slows the boat going to weather under sail or power
Leeway under sail or power
Need bigger anchors

High center of gravity
More pitching
Less comfortable ride
Effects potential for capsize

Less headroom in the salon area (or even more windage to accommodate for headroom)

Hi Frank. This debate is tough. Needless to say some builders will say it is important (the ones that have a high bridgedeck clearance), while the ones that knock it, don't. From what I hear from people that sail off-shore it IS important. They certainly point out numerous situations where having a high BD clearance, meant the difference between having an enjoyable sail and an unbearable one.
There is naturally a fine line to walk and design definitely plays an important part. The document you quoted points out that having a high BD is not only a bonus and the cons needs to be taken into account as well. In the end it'll boil down to testing the cat, to see how it performs in real life. High bridgedeck or not, statistics do not always relay real performance.

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by Lucky

The FP range are in the lighter class of cruising cats making them a reasonably good load carrying vessel. The Belize can carry 3,4 tons from emty, which is very good for the size. Bear in mind though that the less weight you add to the dty weight the safer and faster it is. I haeavily laden boat will be sluggish and therefore be subject to increased loads

Is there a big difference in the load carrying ability between different cats before their sailing performance is effected? I'm not thinking about the actual storage space onboard, but the ability to sail well, even with a lot of gear on board.

Originally Posted by Lucky

Also the price range of 400 kEuros will buy you a near new very well equipped Belize Meastro with money to spare !

Unfortunatly my budget is $400K and not €400K.

[schoonerdog]

You seem to be looking at newer boats. While I would agree that bridgedeck clearance is important, windage is far more important in todays models. And over the years the catamaran manufacturers have basically all come to the same conclusion regarding bridgedeck clearance, no one has built a boat with radically low clearance in 10 years. Norseman was one of the worst examples. Voyage drastically improved it. St Francis improved their clearance in the MK II models. PDQ 44 have great clearance, seated visibility, sacrificial keels, wide flat decks, all sail controls leading aft, and more water tight compartments than anyone.

I do see lots of difference, especially now, in total windage. I understand that the strain at anchor is not affected by total mass of the object, but it's windage. I also see lots of difference now in whether the manufacturer decides to put water tight lockers forward or extra births. One is opting for safety, the other for number of charter passangers. In fact, I would use that as a litmus test if it's truely aimed at an owner or a charter. I would personally never buy a boat that had births instead of water tight compartments up forward. Some manufacturers have never have lost a vessel due to sinking because of items like sacrificial keels and multiple large water tight compartments.

I also see many differences in choice of core materials, a friend is trying to sell his Hattaras power yacht and his balsa cored deck has rotted over the years and needs to be replaced. Some insurance companies take that into consideration, such as Blue Water Insurance.

[Cesar]

Originally Posted by SettingSail2009
"8. Easy access to engine compartments (ideally from the inside) with ample space to work on them from all angles."

Si te gusta el olor a Diesel y Aceite (del motor), entonces si puedes comprarte un Catamarán con los motores bajo las literas de los camarotes de popa. En caso contrario no lo hagas; no conozco ningún barco con lo motores "dentro" que no huela a gasoil al entrar (es posible que yo tenga un gran olfato!).

Teniendo en cuenta tu presupuesto (310.000'00 €) y tu programa de navegación, sigo pensando que los 43 pies son la medida que primero debes buscar. Catamaranes nuevos de 43 ft no vas a encontrar en ese precio, pero si en usado; con pocos años y bien coservados. Tendrás que buscar mucho y bien, pero lo encontrarás. Te apunto una dirección para que la mires. Ya me contarás que te parece.
MARE NOSTRUM

Un afectuoso saludo.

César.

[Kapena]

He aha kela? Oe wala'au a'ole iki...apau pilau.

[TaoJones]

Originally Posted by Kapena

He aha kela? Oe wala'au a'ole iki...apau pilau.

He aha kela? (What is that?) Oe wala'au a'ole... (Can't you talk...) ...apau pilau (it all stinks [or] all rotten [or] decayed).

I'm just a dumb haole, so please be kind.

TaoJones

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by Cesar

Lo que intento decir es que un catamaran de 12 metros me parece un poco justo para cincumnavegar. La carga mínima que tendras que poner en tu barco (incluyendo combustible, agua, viveres, efectos personales y equipo de navegación) será de 2.500 Kg.; por lo que en un catamarán de 12 metros irás al limite de su capacidad. Por supuesto que depende del presupuesto que se disponga para la compra del barco, pero a partir de 43 ó 44 pies, creo que es donde empiezan las opciones de un catamarán con el que dar la vuelta al mundo.

I agree, but like you say, it boils down to budget. Not only the purchasing price, but also the cost of maintenance and expenses endured underway. The bigger the boat, the higher the expenses. At the same time it's nice to have a boat that will be both take you around the globe with the things you want to bring with you, but also function comfortably as your home. As we will only be two people on the boat most of the time, I think a 38-44 ft. cat will be more than sufficient. With that size, we should be able to bring the gear we need without seeing performance drop too radically.

Originally Posted by Cesar

En definitiva, la desición que he tomado ha sido vender mi Lavezzi 40 y comprarme un nuevo Salina 48 (también FP's). Hasta Marzo de 2008 no me lo entregarán. Cargar el Salina 48 con 3.000 ó 3.500 Kg. no supone poner al limite la capacidad de este catamarán, pues admite una carga de 4.500 Kg.; con lo que su funcionamiento no se verá comprometido.

For my budget 48 ft. will be too expensive, unless I buy a very old boat, something I wish to avoid. In terms of weight, prudence will be the key for me: Bringing only what I really need will keep the weight low and sailing performance high.

Originally Posted by Cesar

Creo que, de estos astilleros, hay varios modelos que son adecuados para cincumnavegar.

Yes, there certainly are enough models to choose from, the trick is finding the right one. I think I'm on the right track though, in large parts due to the great information I've gotten on this forum and from contacting people busy circumnavigating.

Good luck with your new boat.

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by Cesar

Si te gusta el olor a Diesel y Aceite (del motor), entonces si puedes comprarte un Catamarán con los motores bajo las literas de los camarotes de popa. En caso contrario no lo hagas; no conozco ningún barco con lo motores "dentro" que no huela a gasoil al entrar (es posible que yo tenga un gran olfato!).

That's an interesting point. I wonder how big a problem it is with diesel smell inside the cabin, when you have access from the inside. It would be very annoying if there is always a whiff of diesel in the air.

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by Jeannius

People who think of Privileges as slow are thinking about the earlier Jeantot designs. The 395, 435 and 465 where all designed by Marc Lombard who hads designed Open 60 monos and the French 60ft Multihull class.

I don't doubt the performance of the new Privileges. I really like the look and the feel of the 435/445, the problem is that the price tag falls outside my budget. The 395 lacks the view forward that I want, so this unfortunately excludes the Privilege cats from my list.

Unless someone has $200,000 that they won't miss for the time being... I'll pay it back when I sell the boat

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

You seem to be looking at newer boats.

Yes I am. I want to keep it as new as possible. Ideally I'd like to buy a new boat, but realistically to get the cat I want, I'll have to buy a used one.

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

While I would agree that bridgedeck clearance is important, windage is far more important in todays models.

You raise an interesting point that is often forgotten when discussing BD clearance. The larger the headroom inside, the more of a profile you present to the wind. This in turn generates different problems. Windage is something you notice under anchor, when maneauvering in tight spots with the wind as your opponent and when sailing/motoring to weather (if I understand things correctly).

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

I also see lots of difference now in whether the manufacturer decides to put water tight lockers forward or extra births. One is opting for safety, the other for number of charter passangers. In fact, I would use that as a litmus test if it's truely aimed at an owner or a charter. I would personally never buy a boat that had births instead of water tight compartments up forward.

Neither would I and the list of cats I'm interested in is a reflection of this.

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

I also see many differences in choice of core materials, a friend is trying to sell his Hattaras power yacht and his balsa cored deck has rotted over the years and needs to be replaced. Some insurance companies take that into consideration, such as Blue Water Insurance.

What are considered good core materials? Which are to be avoided?

[Factor]

Bridgedeck clearance - one quick case study - sitting lord howe lagoon (couple of days south east of brisbane and few extra from the whitsundays) and two cats sailed in one (a crowther c10) reported a really enjoyable sail - a bit bouncy but enjoyable, the other - a maxim 380 reported a horrible sail with non stop slamming for days on end. The maxim had left a day before the crowther and both arrived within hours of each othe and had departed from similar locations.