Chotu's Advanced Running Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

[rslifkin]

I'd say go with Jedi's idea for self tacking. It sounds like it'll strike the best balance of simplicity and functionality (and low cost). I haven't personally seen a setup like that, so it didn't pop into my mental picture as an option.

I'd forgotten you already have the 100% jib, so I'd use it for now and see how the boat sails. Just leave yourself the option to route jib sheets for a future addition of conventional jib leads (presumably cars on a track), that way if you decide you want a bigger jib at some point, you can add the hardware to rig it.

[CarlF]

I once has a self tacking blade on a monohull (55') and hated it.

1) It was impossible to trim the self tacker on my boat for a good slot shape between the genoa and mainsail - and that's where a lot of your drive comes. I switched it out for two pad eyes and a short length of track. Maybe your boat will be different but it's hard to know until you take her sailing.

2) Tacking a big cat in light winds is sometimes much easier if you can momentarily backwind the jib to push the bow around. With a self-tacking rig you can't do this.

3) A 100%-110% blade is a great sail upwind on a cat. It's simple to tack as long as the sheets run to the helm. And on your rocket ship of a boat with its huge mainsail, a bigger genoa isn't going to noticeably improve upwind speed.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by CarlF

I once has a self tacking blade on a monohull (55') and hated it.

1) It was impossible to trim the self tacker on my boat for a good slot shape between the genoa and mainsail - and that's where a lot of your drive comes. I switched it out for two pad eyes and a short length of track. Maybe your boat will be different but it's hard to know until you take her sailing.

2) Tacking a big cat in light winds is sometimes much easier if you can momentarily backwind the jib to push the bow around. With a self-tacking rig you can't do this.

3) A 100%-110% blade is a great sail upwind on a cat. It's simple to tack as long as the sheets run to the helm. And on your rocket ship of a boat with its huge mainsail, a bigger genoa isn't going to noticeably improve upwind speed.

i’m really hoping #2 isn’t a problem. what I usually do in those cases is head off a little bit to build boat speed and move apparent wind aft, easing up on aerodynamic drag to boat speed ratio, then make a nice, smooth, arcing turn across the wind, being careful not to stall the rudders by turning too sharply.


I guess it’s settled. I will stick with the 100% jib. then I’ll do like the rigging doctor link to have a normal first then self tacker.

with the spinnaker, I will use those rescue straps on the bow beam to attach the tack. then I will run the other spinnaker sheet out to my aft turning blocks way at the aft part of each hull. that will allow me to use the symmetrical Spinnaker really far off of 180. Seems like I could almost use it on a pretty beamy reach if i can bring the tack down near my leeward bow and run the sheet aft to the leeward turning block. I could approach 95-100 with that I think.

90 beam reach to close hauled, for the time being, would be high aspect 100% jib.

when wind gets too high for the spinnaker (which I don’t know what that is for a number yet) I can go over to the 100% jib let way out

Sound reasonable to everyone for a first stab at it?

I can’t even begin to describe how exciting this part is

[MicHughV]

Like others here, I'm not a big fan of a staysail, whether on a permanent stay or removable stay. That stay gets in the way of trying to get the jib/genoa across and tends to get caught up in that area where the staysail is or isn't as the case may be, and it forms a "belly" there invariably requiring someone to go forward and drag the sail across that forestay.
It becomes a royal pain in the rear end.
Not so bad if you have able crew onboard, but going solo to wrestle with that situation is enuff to make you say bad words !!

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Like others here, I'm not a big fan of a staysail, whether on a permanent stay or removable stay. That stay gets in the way of trying to get the jib/genoa across and tends to get caught up in that area where the staysail is or isn't as the case may be, and it forms a "belly" there invariably requiring someone to go forward and drag the sail across that forestay.
It becomes a royal pain in the rear end.
Not so bad if you have able crew onboard, but going solo to wrestle with that situation is enuff to make you say bad words !!

don’t worry. You won’t find a Staysail on my boat lol seems like not a very good idea for this boat

[catsketcher]

A couple of things

- 1 -Staysail - a staysail is an amazing sail to have. On my cat I have built two cockpit arrangements, 3 motor arrangements, 3 different protections over the cockpit and more changes, but never have I ever considered getting rid of my inner forestay and its small storm jib. To be fair my inner forestay sits about half way back from the headstay, so the genoa tacks well, even in light winds. But I would never be without the bulletproof feeling of knowing that I can pull up the slightly larger than normal storm jib on the inner forestay - it is a great sail in winds of 25 knots and more.

In fact I am now working out a new arrangement where I can move the staysail tack further forward to handle a staysail of about half the size of the 110% genoa. It will moved forward for ocean passages, or when the larger staysail is required and back again for day sailing.

2 - You can't easily change the design now - The sheeting of the genoa is something the designer had to think of when designing the cabin and the cockpit, backing pads, sheeting angles, blocks backing pads and more. You can't change things easily AFTER you have built the boat, it's very late, you can do it but you will have a huge amount of work to do.

More later

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

A couple of things

- 1 -Staysail - a staysail is an amazing sail to have. On my cat I have built two cockpit arrangements, 3 motor arrangements, 3 different protections over the cockpit and more changes, but never have I ever considered getting rid of my inner forestay and its small storm jib. To be fair my inner forestay sits about half way back from the headstay, so the genoa tacks well, even in light winds. But I would never be without the bulletproof feeling of knowing that I can pull up the slightly larger than normal storm jib on the inner forestay - it is a great sail in winds of 25 knots and more.

In fact I am now working out a new arrangement where I can move the staysail tack further forward to handle a staysail of about half the size of the 110% genoa. It will moved forward for ocean passages, or when the larger staysail is required and back again for day sailing.

2 - You can't easily change the design now - The sheeting of the genoa is something the designer had to think of when designing the cabin and the cockpit, backing pads, sheeting angles, blocks backing pads and more. You can't change things easily AFTER you have built the boat, it's very late, you can do it but you will have a huge amount of work to do.

More later

I have seen your posts and got to know your knowledge about Catamarans and I am listening. you definitely know your way around Catamarans. So your post is being taken seriously

mostly I have to address #2:

What I have kind of landed on here discussing it with the 100% self tacking jib that can also function as a regular one is the design. That’s how the boat was already designed.

however, it doesn’t matter what I do. It’s a blank canvas. Nothing has been built in that department yet. I am free to do anything I want as far as deck hardware placement goes. so I really have a lot more flexibility than you are imagining.

you are imagining that there were certain places in the plan and I carefully measured exactly where the plans called for a non-compressible core for a jib track to go. I didn’t do it like that. I knew when the time came I would want to customize the rig how I want it or have some special situation. So it’s a blank canvas with incompressible core everywhere i might have running rigging hardware.

I thought way ahead in that department when i built the boat. just need backing plates in areas I install things.

I guess I will address the staysail also. there isn’t one in my plans. There isn’t a good spot to stick one. It’s just not part of the design. For now I’m not going to try to add it because it sounds like a huge pain in the ass to me to add something i don’t know if i want. I’ll just stick with what I have for now. If I feel like I need a staysail in the future I will add it but not yet. Note: i do have the stay for it (that would also need to be lengthened with a dyneema loop) but i don’t feel like adding a lot of extra work for something i may not need. the staysail attachment point is NOT in an area with non-compressible core so a huge epoxy project. not happening. no more epoxy allowed on this boat

[catsketcher]

I get it, a staysail also needs the mast to be rigged for it. I have a rig that is made for a smallish staysail so all is good. As for moving the staysail deck tang forward, like you it is in midair for me. But I found a lovely old boom that was given away. It is going to be my new prodder, reaching out from under the bridgdeck to the forebeam and out to be the new prodder so I have made new composite tangs to take the inner forestay further ahead of the bridgedeck.

My worry is that a modern bridgedeck is not narrow enough to easily fit a genoa onto it. Back in the early days of cats (like CSK and Crowther Spindrifts) the hulls were so narrow that no one though of making the cabin wide enough to meet them. So cabins were built with little beam, so that a genoa track could be mounted alongside the cabin and still be at say 12 degrees sheeting angle.

But those cats are awful to live in and so designers made the cabins and hulls wide but apart from some designs (like Mark Pescott's cats that have a humped bridgedeck) we have cabins where any overlapping genoa must mount to the cabin roof. This produces all sorts of issues with leading the sheets to the cockpit. These worries go away if you have a cabin with little protrusion onto the forward deck and go with a self tacking jib. Self tacking reduces the issues with the cabin. I have seen some cats, designed for self tackers with genoas put on them that don't sail to windward any better, because they have to sheet so wide, to get around the cabin, that the sail is no use closehauled.

When I built my present bridgedeck cabin 10 years ago (to replace the horrible shelter that had developed over 3 years of cruising), sheeting the genoa was a pivotal part of the design. I measured the 12 degree sheeting angle before I built the cabin and worked out the ergonomics of bringing the sheets aft. I am very happy with the result - it works really well, but the genoa was designed and built to cater for the raised clew that the high sheet lead position entails.

I have a "normal" cockpit, with winches on coamings either side and a wheel in the centre. I can walk easily from side to side to tack the genoa (which doesn't hang up on the inner forestay because the stay is not more than 50% of the J forward). It all works easily, but I don't have a steering station or central line organising setup.

Your headsail will have to seamslessly fit in with what you already have for your sheeting setup. If you have a raised steering position and want all lines leading to it, then a self tacker will probably be best. A single line can easily led to the helm and left alone for most of the time. If that is the case then I would pay really good money to get a good track system. I would also like to have some barber haulers to pull the clew out wide when reaching, but these could be led to the cockpit coamings if it is easier.

I don't really get raised helm positions though. If your boat is similar to the Gunboat, then for most of the time you will be inside, looking through the windows when sailing offshore. Then if you need to do something you go outside and alter course or adjust trim. A raised helm position is great for motoring in crowded waters but I tend to walk around a fair bit, keeping an eye out for everything I can, looking over the boat, getting some lunch, all while the boat sails under autopilot. For me having to climb into the pod to adjust sails is harder than having the sheets led to the coamings, and leading them to the cockpit comings is so much easier and more efficient for kites and Code Zeros.

So consider the fact that you will be under autopilot almost all of the time, (Like these guys at about 12.30 into the video) and as such not ALL of your sheet leads do not have to be adjustable at the raised helm. I have a few $5 garage door controllers that control my autopilot, so I can wander around AND steer at the same time. If I could not see easily over my cabin, I would rather put a large TV screen on the aft wall of the bridgedeck cabin that has a camera showing where I am going (and more) and keep the sheet leads simple, rather than have a raised helm with all lines led to it. But I love the trim part of sailing, and I love being able to easily adjust all the sheets with low friction and low hassle. For others it will be different but I think the Outremer twin helm concept works well for a raised helm setup.

[MicHughV]

Chotu,

Some inferences are being made as to how you intend to sail your boat.
It is, by all accounts a large vessel, especially so for a single person.
Singlehanding this boat will present some challenges for sure, and this is where it would prudent to keep to the " Keep it simple, Sam" theory.

Sailing in 10-15 knots is one thing, but sailing in 20-25 knots is quite another, not forgetting that with your swift steed, apparent wind is something to be mindful off, as boat speed alone, can make up the 10 knot difference.

There is little point in trying to experiment with various sail options, until such time as you have gained some experience with the basics and get comfortable with your vessel.

[Cavalier MK2]

So Phil, why not a removable staysail stay? That is what I added along with the running backs for storm use. Plus you could set it up for different attach points forward for more versatility.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Chotu,

Some inferences are being made as to how you intend to sail your boat.
It is, by all accounts a large vessel, especially so for a single person.
Singlehanding this boat will present some challenges for sure, and this is where it would prudent to keep to the " Keep it simple, Sam" theory.

Sailing in 10-15 knots is one thing, but sailing in 20-25 knots is quite another, not forgetting that with your swift steed, apparent wind is something to be mindful off, as boat speed alone, can make up the 10 knot difference.

There is little point in trying to experiment with various sail options, until such time as you have gained some experience with the basics and get comfortable with your vessel.

exactly.

i’m just going to get it sailing and then get to know it a little bit. My sister ship is single handed all the time up and down the east coast of the United States.

he doesn’t seem to have much problem. He’s good though. Lol.

So what I’m going to do is just get the basics together as we have all kind of discussed earlier and go from there. When I find something I don’t like when it’s not performing the way I think it should I will start to Think about adding other options

[s/v Jedi]

What do you plan to use for halyards, sheets, lazy jacks, reefing lines, control lines?

I find I spend lots of time on these issues and improvements are big going from one option to another.

[Chotu]

catsketcher: There it is. There is that knowledge of Catamarans. I didn’t even realize that the deck house was the main reason for the sheeting angle differences on different Catamarans. I completely understand what you are saying about that.

makes a lot of sense.

I have a very very wide deck house. Just picture a gunboat 48. That’s my boat. It’s exactly the same.

The only difference is where they have the forward cockpit, where all the lines lead, mine go inside the deck house there. Like this picture.

so I have to have my 100% jib for exactly the reason that you stated. it’s the only thing that will fit with the wide deck house. now I get it. Coming from monohulls and a poor performing Catamaran that was old, I didn’t see the connection between the deck house and the foresail sheets.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

What do you plan to use for halyards, sheets, lazy jacks, reefing lines, control lines?

I find I spend lots of time on these issues and improvements are big going from one option to another.

Halyards: It’s a fractional rig. they are dyneema and there are 2 forward at the termination of the uppers in that sheave box, as well as 2 aft at the masthead sheave box. That’s what the rig came with and i replaced all of the sheaves and all new Dyneema. these will run to my sail control table on centerline. middle winch handles halyards, constrictor line stoppers.

sheets: I forget what kind of rope it is. But I am sitting here looking at rolls of it. I have 3 rolls of sheet rope from New England ropes and Marlow. these will go to turning blocks on the boat at the appropriate spots through deck organizers and to the plinth/sail control table. they will be run on a starboard and a port winch on the plinth/sail control table. constrictor rope clutches.

lazy jacks: no idea about that part yet. Also no sail cover. Need to put together a custom stack pack situation probably. I think the hardware is already on the boom for the lazy Jacks. I will probably put together my own custom stack pack system with off the shelf parts. Another chance to have fun with that drill and tap kit you suggested i buy. it’s a lot of fun actually to make your own threaded holes anytime, anywhere

reefing lines: not sure how to do this part actually. This is something I’m going to be asking about in the thread. I have all of the control lines for that, but not certain how to set it up. i’ll have questions

Other control lines: dagger board control- also ran to the plinth/sail control table. boards are so light you have to winch them DOWN not up. lol. i laminated a beautiful lifting ring in. little did i know it’s completely unnecessary to lift these boards. Instead you have to force them down into the water. The furling lines, etc. everything goes to the plinth/sail control table. it’s going to be big, complex and super cool in the middle of the salon!

[Chotu]

Note: there will be some pictures and drawings coming here. I didn’t intend to launch the full thread yet. But I welcome the discussion. Mostly I was just trying to figure out what jib so I could start to think about the design a little better