Chotu's Advanced Running Rigging Thread (lots of pics)

[Chotu]

Starting this one off a little early, but it will be like the standing rigging thread.

I'll lay out my design for my running rigging welcoming healthy and courteous discussion.

I actually had a blast with the standing rigging thread and learned some cool stuff along the way, so why not do it again?

It's a bit of a premature start because I'm wondering about something major before I even get started designing:


Self tacking jib.

I have had myself convinced to follow the plans and install one of these.

Now? I'm not as sure.

I'm staring down the barrel of a huge installation project to do that. A track to install, a little blade jib the result. Starting to wonder how much use I'll get out of it.

My sailing style is "set it and forget it." Plot the course for the day, hopefully a straight line with no interruptions, get on course, set the sails, engage autopilot and enjoy the magic carpet ride to the destination while trimming sails as needed for wind/current shifts.

That's mostly what I do. I like to relax and enjoy the ride, tending the sails as needed or as my mood for perfection increases or decreases. I also find staying rested on the passage keeps me sharper mentally and more prepared physically for and problem requiring a lot of physical effort.

I'm not going to short tack my way up a narrow channel. I'm going to wait until the wind is right to go up on a reach. Lazy.

So... I'm wondering, for my type of boat and sailing, what primary "in irons" to reaching foresail I need.

I like the idea of the bigger one, because I can use it to grab more power in light air. I can always furl it up smaller for heavy air. I know. Sail shape degrades, but it's heavy air so I don't exactly care. Plenty too much power already.

What primary workhorse foresail would you do given my sailing style of "lazy" and my install style of also lazy?

[Stu Jackson]

I'm not a catamaran sailor, but I've seen self tacking jibs on "my" boat's sisterships and on others of similar size. One C34 moved down from the California Delta to SF Bay and after ONE day promptly removed the track and bought what he called "a real jib." What his issue was and what I have read about for literally decades (I've owned my 33 year old boat for 25 years) is that they are great for going upwind, period. On SF Bay, where many marinas are located (except for Sausalito) are downwind at the end of a nice day. The nicest way to sail downwind and relax is to drop the main and noodle along with just the jib and not have to hassle with gybing a mainsail and boom. Self tacking jibs are rotten for that.


Your boat your choice my input

[Chotu]

Input is whst I'm asking for, Stu, so yours is much appreciated and taken into consideration.

Once I figure out what type of foresail, I'll start designing the whole system and share those designs for critique.

[rslifkin]

If you install the track for self tacking as well as traditional jib leads and can run with either style, you give yourself options. You can run a bigger, non self tacking jib (not sure how big you could reasonably go with your rig though), but also have a smaller blade jib on board that's good for heavier winds and short tacking upwind.


If you only really want to use the self tacking rig upwind, it doesn't even necessarily have to be a track, it could just be sheeted to a single point (you just won't get as far off the wind with it before the shape goes to hell without using something like a barber hauler to help).


With those options, you'd leave the "big" jib (which may not actually be all that much bigger) up most of the time, but if you're expecting some sailing in high winds or a lot of tacking upwind, swap jibs before departure and use the self tacker.

I guess one important question is this: what's the biggest jib you'd reasonably want to put on the furler with your boat and rig, and how far off the wind would you want to use it before going to the spinnaker or something else?

[CatLove]

Whether you can use a self tacking jib depends on many design details ofr your boat, such as mast location, rake, original design jib size , hull and daggerboard.
Significantly changing the jib size , for example from an overlapping large jib or genoa to a smaller self tacker could seriously affect the boat weather helm.


There is also the option of having the best of both worlds, a self tacking jib on an inner forestay and a larger furling jib on the forestay in front of it .
This may be an option or not, depending if you have the attachment positions available for the inner stay. I haven't seen any pics of your boat or rig but for a performance cat this would be the standard option.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by CatLove

Whether you can use a self tacking jib depends on many design details ofr your boat, such as mast location, rake, original design jib size , hull and daggerboard.
Significantly changing the jib size , for example from an overlapping large jib or genoa to a smaller self tacker could seriously affect the boat weather helm.


There is also the option of having the best of both worlds, a self tacking jib on an inner forestay and a larger furling jib on the forestay in front of it .
This may be an option or not, depending if you have the attachment positions available for the inner stay. I haven't seen any pics of your boat or rig but for a performance cat this would be the standard option.

Picture a gunboat 48. That’s all you need to do. I'm 2 feet longer and nearly identical.




I have the very standard performance Catamaran setup and it's exactly what you see in this pic except I bought a symmetric Spinnaker with sock and do not have the prodder/sprit pictured yet. I may add one in a couple years.

I don't have a bowsprit yet. probably will not get one in the next 12 months. So, no spot for an inner and outer sail at this time.

The furler for the foresail I'm discussing is on the bow beam.

[CatLove]

I was thinking something along these lines. You don't have to add them all at once, could have the self tacker first, then add as time , money and desire allows the others.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by CatLove

I was thinking something along these lines. You don't have to add them all at once, could have the self tacker first, then add as time , money and desire allows the others.

Unfortunately that's not what I have. The innermost sail on my boat is the middle sail on this boat you are showing.

That is the sail designated as a self tacker in the plans.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

If you install the track for self tacking as well as traditional jib leads and can run with either style, you give yourself options. You can run a bigger, non self tacking jib (not sure how big you could reasonably go with your rig though), but also have a smaller blade jib on board that's good for heavier winds and short tacking upwind.


If you only really want to use the self tacking rig upwind, it doesn't even necessarily have to be a track, it could just be sheeted to a single point (you just won't get as far off the wind with it before the shape goes to hell without using something like a barber hauler to help).


With those options, you'd leave the "big" jib (which may not actually be all that much bigger) up most of the time, but if you're expecting some sailing in high winds or a lot of tacking upwind, swap jibs before departure and use the self tacker.

I guess one important question is this: what's the biggest jib you'd reasonably want to put on the furler with your boat and rig, and how far off the wind would you want to use it before going to the spinnaker or something else?

not responding to this one yet because I have to think through this. I don’t have the answers yet. also not picturing the setup very well.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Chotu

not responding to this one yet because I have to think through this. I don’t have the answers yet. also not picturing the setup very well.

To help you picture it, think of having 2 sets of jib leads available where you only use 1 or the other at a time depending on the sailing you're doing or the jib you have on the furler. So you either run a single sheet through the self tacking block (either on a track or fixed in the center). Or you run 2 sheets through adjustable leads on a fore/aft track on each side and tack the jib conventionally. So basically you're not deciding which type of jib sheeting hardware to install, you'd be installing both for the sake of long term flexibility.

That has the boat equipped for both types of jib sheeting, allowing you to use a self tacking jib, but also support a wider range of other jibs if desired (and with more flexibility in the size and cut of jibs you can use as you're not limited to 95-ish percent like you are when using a self tacking setup). Having a furler doesn't prevent you from changing jibs, it just means you don't have to do it all the time but can change at the dock or at anchor before departing based on whether it's going to be blowing 8 kts or 25 kts for the next leg of travel (or the next few days of day sailing).

[Chotu]

OK, silly question, but you know: the laziness factor.

couldn’t I just use a larger jib on the roller Furler? You know, like a 120%? Then I could roll up 20% of it and use it as a self Tacker?

I don’t really like the idea of changing sails. I know I will never do it. they are really annoying to fold up. They are heavy. They are difficult to manage. it Hass to be dead calm to change them . it’s an annoying process. I prefer to just use whatever sails I have up.

I know. People are recoiling in horror. But I’m a cruiser not a racer.

as an example, I actually can’t move my mainsail. I can’t get it out of the cockpit where I used A block and tackle system to get it there in the first place. There is no way I can get it up onto the roof and in place. It’s too heavy.

also, you had mentioned a single central block for the self tacker. Is there a way to do that? Instead of installing the track? Is there a more rope oriented way to do that instead of setting the self tacker attachment point on a track?

then I could use the harken tracks that I already have for the other set of jib sheets. I know as a jib gets a little bigger, turning to a Genoa, I always need to use those tracks to get the shape right. I don’t see running a sail as large as a Genoa on a catamaran... I don't think. no one else does it. but I probably still need the track to get the shape correct I’m thinking...

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Chotu

OK, silly question, but you know: the laziness factor.

couldn’t I just use a larger jib on the roller Furler? You know, like a 120%? Then I could roll up 20% of it and use it as a self Tacker?

I don’t really like the idea of changing sails. I know I will never do it. they are really annoying to fold up. They are heavy. They are difficult to manage. it’s an annoying process. I prefer to just use whatever sails I have up.

I know. People are recoiling in horror. But I’m a cruiser not a racer.

also, you had mentioned a single central block for the self tacker. Is there a way to do that? Instead of installing the track? Is there a more rope oriented way to do that instead of setting the self tacker attachment point on a track?

then I could use the herken tracks that I already have for the other set of jib sheets. I know as a gym gets a little bigger, turning to a Genoa, I always need to use those tracks to get the shape right. I don’t see running a sail as large as a Genoa on a catamaran... I don't think. no one else does it. but I probably still need the track to get the shape correct I’m thinking...

Technically yes, although a sail heavy enough for heavy air sailing won't be optimal for lighter air upwind work even before the reefing related concern.

Technically a 120 is a Genoa, as it has overlap. It just wouldn't be a huge Genoa like some older monos run.

For self tacking, the fixed block on the centerline isn't much of a handicap when close hauled. Compared to a track the downside is worse sail shape once you come off the wind a bit and let the sheet out. It's the same issue you'd run into with a mainsail with no traveler and no vang. Once you let the sheet out too much you've got no ability to pull down on the sail (and because the block is on the centerline you have to let the sheet way out to get the sail out).

Laziness is why some people run a solent rig with 2 forestays (and 2 furlers) right behind one another. The downside is that you have to furl and unfurl the bigger jib to tack it. But the upside is that your sail change is just a matter of furling the big sail and rolling out the smaller one (which is sometimes a self tacker).

[Chotu]

we already do run the double Furlers for the screecher or a code zero.

that goes on the bowsprit.

This IS the inner sail we are discussing

The inner sail is the first thing I am going to get in order. I’m not getting the bowsprit or the second Furler yet for that. That’s probably in a couple years realistically because this stuff takes forever

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Chotu

we already do run the double Furlers for the screecher or a code zero.

that goes on the bowsprit.

This IS the inner sail we are discussing

The inner sail is the first thing I am going to get in order. I’m not getting the bowsprit or the second Furler yet for that. That’s probably in a couple years realistically because this stuff takes forever

I was referring more to a setup like a few people posted where you have the screecher, etc. out on the bowsprit, but then 2 furlers further back instead of one. Realistically it wouldn't make sense to add another furler now, but depending on what you find yourself wanting after you've sailed the boat a bit that could always be figured out later.

Initially your plan of a 120 that can be rigged either way seems like a good one. You can always get a smaller sail to swap to or add one on a solent stay later if you find yourself sailing with the 120 reefed a lot of the time. As long as you don't close any doors with the initial setup you can always start simple and adjust the setup based on what you find useful once you've sailed the boat a bit.

[Stu Jackson]

When I sailed up from SF in 2016,, I met a guy in Coos Bay with a 30-32 footer who had a self tacking jib but did it with running rigging. I think I may have a photo, will have to dig it out. It was a rare arrangement but I'd actually heard of it before and seen one back in SF. This was NOT the centerline thing mentioned by rslifkin. Wish I'd spent more time on it. Lemme think some more.