Circumnavigation w/o liferaft

[Palarran]

In regards to the question of having a life raft for offshore sailing on a cat - If you can afford the boat, you can sure as heck afford a life raft. I've never offshore sailed but wouldn't you put your rib on a deck or somehow remove the engine and stow it? In a storm it would be torn from it's davits. Also, it would be irresponsible to have crew on a boat offshore and lack a major safety item.

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

In any FastCat a Liferaft is not necessary The boats cannot sink, even if they burn and that is possible, enough of the boat will rest to stay with,

Looking back to Maxingout's post, I think there is another danger here that you aren't addressing:

Fire may or may not sink the boat (won't sink it in your case). However, who wants to sit around in a fire burning waiting to find out?

[Eleven]

As I've said before, the dinghy that's properly fitted out is better than a liferaft.
It does need a small sail, a cover, a drogue (of the right size), solar panel to keep everything working, your back up GPS and hand held VHF and water, a weeks supplies and lots of chocolate. Given all that is stowed so it's still there after your main boat has sunk! you have a good chance of saving yourself and talking (VHF) to those prepared to help you. If your circum you will be a long way from shore or shipping at times but more than a week.
Most cat dinghy's are big enough. Kit that should be stowed in the dinghy is also back up for the main boat and can be taken indoors when the dinghy reverts to being a tender. If you've been caught in a late evening fog you may be glad of the GPS that's tucked away in a corner. Hope this makes sense, experience is wiser than trying to think of everything.

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by ssullivan

Looking back to Maxingout's post, I think there is another danger here that you aren't addressing:

Fire may or may not sink the boat (won't sink it in your case). However, who wants to sit around in a fire burning waiting to find out?

That is the reason we standard equip our cats with both a life raft and a rigid inflatable
Greetings

Gideon

[Troutbridge]

Originally Posted by Eleven

As I've said before, the dinghy that's properly fitted out is better than a liferaft.
It does need a small sail, a cover, a drogue (of the right size), solar panel to keep everything working, your back up GPS and hand held VHF and water, a weeks supplies and lots of chocolate. Given all that is stowed so it's still there after your main boat has sunk! you have a good chance of saving yourself and talking (VHF) to those prepared to help you. If your circum you will be a long way from shore or shipping at times but more than a week.
Most cat dinghy's are big enough. Kit that should be stowed in the dinghy is also back up for the main boat and can be taken indoors when the dinghy reverts to being a tender. If you've been caught in a late evening fog you may be glad of the GPS that's tucked away in a corner. Hope this makes sense, experience is wiser than trying to think of everything.

I see your signature says you're a determined prospective sailor, so let's think this through a bit. Yes, if your boat is big enough to carry a proper lifeboat then a lifeboat is better than a liferaft. I'm not sure what size of boat you're considering but my dingy is an Avon, about 11ft LOA. It's just about the biggest dingy I could fit on my boat (Broadblue 385) and it would not make a suitable lifeboat, however I tried to modify it. Don't forget, when we're considering the use of a liferaft/boat then we're talking pretty much the ultimate disaster.. I think the Fastnet of '79 proved conclusively that it's better to stay with the boat if you can. The original thread was about a circumnavigation, so you might find yourself 1500nm from anywhere when you took to the liferaft/boat. No lifeboat (to the best of my knowledge) carries enough fuel to go 1500nm and no cat of the sort of size I assume we're talking about could carry that much additional weight anyway. A sail and oars would be a help, but I would suggest only in the event of being fairly close, upwind/current of dry land.
Some years ago I had a Tinker Traveller with the optional equipment that turned it into a liferaft, I also had a liferaft. The thinking with the Tinker was that I had more options if I ever had to use it. I experimented with it in controlled conditions and found that firstly it was a bit tricky to get the right way up if it inverted and secondly it was difficult to get into if it was rigged with the canopy attached. trying to rig the canopy whilst in the water was virtually a non-starter. Having said that, yes if I could deploy both the Tinker and the liferaft then I would have more options, but my initial choice always would have been the liferaft.
It is a matter of personal choice whether you carry one or not, I think that you'd be really stupid not to. I find it frankly incredible that people talk about saving weight as a reason for not carrying a liferaft. If weight is that critical I would be highly suspicious of the boat. In addition to the liferaft you also need a 'grab bag'. What you put in it is up to you, but mine carries extra water, a solar still, flares, cans of food, very basic fishing gear, sun cream, extra first aid equipment, hand held VHF, spare batteries for it and if time allows I'll grab my Iridium and take that. None of that weighs very much and increases my chances of survival. The toatal cost in £ sterling is probably around £2000 (excluding the sat phone). If you plan to sail around the Solent, cross channel or basically coast hop then you might consider not carrying a liferaft (I wouldn't consider NOT carrying one, personally, but that's my choice). As soon as you're talking about crossing oceans (or even Biscay) then carrying a liferaft dramatically increase your chances of survival. You'd try everything else first mind you. As part of a controlled exercise I've spent a short time floating in the North Sea in a liferaft. It wasn't comfortable, it wasn't fun, it wasn't even remotely amusing and it was a bugger to get the right way up (it was deliberately inverted) but it was a means of survival.....which is what we're talking about.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by MarkJ

a)
b) I would doubt you would get a clearence to leave some (nanny) countries like New Zealand and Australia without a liferaft.

May be the case in sheep love countries, not the case in australia. No requirement for a pleasure craft to have one on departure.

On the issue of rafts -and please note I am not taking sides here - I have my view;

1. some people think that you need rafts - IF YOU ARE GOING Offshore - dont know about most of you but I cant swim more than a kilometre, so even in Moreton bay there are plenty of spots where I couldnt swim to shore - so should every boat have a life raft in the bay or sydney harbour and similar locations?

2. Biggest loss of life in yachting in Australia for many years - Syd - Hobart 98, boat sinks - people get into life rafts and three die, indeed in the sydney race, three died after they got into life rafts, one man overboard, one a heart attack on board and one other drowned on the same boat when he couldnt get his safety harness undone after a capsize (funny I thought monos all just calmly self righted and everyone was hunky dory and smugly looking at inverted cats). Dont put too much faith in anything would appear to be the motto.

[Eleven]

Dear Troutbridge. Yes. You are right.
1. In an extreme weather situation then the liferaft WILL deploy. Getting into it won't be easy and there are things to do to the dinghy to make that easier.
2. Personnally I expect to tie the liferaft to the boat and keep a knife in the Lifeboat next to the tie point.
Chances of a dire and immediate exit are very slim. I would hope to launch the dinghy, on a rope to the liferaft, with it's kit as described. Conditions then will decide which is the best option and when conditions change hopefully both will be available.
3. Circum cruiser will be short handed so a two man liferaft is enough? Add a dinghy for comfort and support if circumstance permits.
4. A liferaft only goes down wind, slower or faster. I'd hate to miss a safe stopping place. A dinghy is an option, not a replacement, I accept that.
5. I plan electric dinghy drive giving an hour or so a day, every day, and dash speed when needed. That's a lot of panel but it'll be the main boats panel, it's just mounted on the dinghy as a sun shade.
I do appreciate your input, I might not get two chances to get it right.
And I can't wait to get going, sink or swim.
And I do like the idea of immersion suits for 'permanent' crew.
We can't afford to lose our boat but I'd choice my partner any day. So I'm listening and reading and throwing in ideas to see if they make sense. The more reading I do the more confused I get. Do you sail in a storm or drogue or sea-anchor bow on or stern on or does on depend. ON WHAT? Experience. I haven't got any!
Mind you, channel isles are on the list. Hope it's this summer. Trev
ps Tinker was one I had in mind. OOps.

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

That is the reason we standard equip our cats with both a life raft and a rigid inflatable
Greetings

Gideon

Sorry... didn't intend to provoke a commercial. "our catamarans"...

Do any of the boat manufacturers or anchor manufacturers on this board ever stop "selling?"

You'd all do a lot better by participating and sharking knowledge, then becoming a respected authority. People buy boats (and anchors) from respected authorities, not shills.

[Pelagic]

I have no problem with Gideon being proud and enthusiastic of his boat company and if in this dialogue he convinces others to give his product a second look….Great best of luck to both of them.

To be honest Sean, I think we all participate in this great forum for selfish reasons and in the process debate a number of issues that are mutually beneficial.

Just because a person has a natural bias (Cat/mono….amateur/professional….supplier/customer) we should not be so impolite as to make him feel unwelcome. This is a great sight…give the guy some slack!

Cheers! Nick

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I have no problem with Gideon being proud and enthusiastic of his boat company and if in this dialogue he convinces others to give his product a second look….Great best of luck to both of them.

To be honest Sean, I think we all participate in this great forum for selfish reasons and in the process debate a number of issues that are mutually beneficial.

Just because a person has a natural bias (Cat/mono….amateur/professional….supplier/customer) we should not be so impolite as to make him feel unwelcome. This is a great sight…give the guy some slack!

Cheers! Nick

Ok, point taken. Apologies to Gideon.

It's just tough to watch someone do the "hard sell" all the time when there are far better ways to market one's products - even on this forum. I'd like to see Gideon succeed with more sales (as I would of all the vendors on here), so it's painful to watch them do the hard sell.

I'm really just giving a little "tough love'' ha ha My intention isn't to make him feel unwelcome. So, sorry if that is how it came out, Gideon.

Anyway, I didn't realize everyone on here was on for selfish reasons. What are yours? I'm on here to communicate with a wide range of diverse people who are all into boats. I feel it's a great place to learn new things and add in things I already know. I don't stand to make a dime to be on here. Do you?

[Pelagic]

Anyway, I didn't realize everyone on here was on for selfish reasons. What are yours? I'm on here to communicate with a wide range of diverse people who are all into boats. I feel it's a great place to learn new things and add in things I already know. I don't stand to make a dime to be on here. Do you?

Nah! I'm just one of Gord's groupies! Seriously all you guy's have saved me some serious money since participating in this Forum, so that's even better....right? lol

[GordMay]

When a manufacturer says something like:

Originally Posted by fastcat435

That is the reason we standard equip our cats with both a life raft and a rigid inflatable
Greetings
Gideon

I don’t see it as much different than another private member saying, “with over 20,000 sea-miles under my keel, I always ...”
It seems to me, to be a sort “my money is where my mouth is” endorsement of a practice, rather than an advertisement.

Of course, if you perceive that particular practice to be wise, then you may be partially sold on the manufacturer’s product.

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by ssullivan

Ok, point taken. Apologies to Gideon.

It's just tough to watch someone do the "hard sell" all the time when there are far better ways to market one's products - even on this forum. I'd like to see Gideon succeed with more sales (as I would of all the vendors on here), so it's painful to watch them do the hard sell.

I'm really just giving a little "tough love'' ha ha My intention isn't to make him feel unwelcome. So, sorry if that is how it came out, Gideon.

Anyway, I didn't realize everyone on here was on for selfish reasons. What are yours? I'm on here to communicate with a wide range of diverse people who are all into boats. I feel it's a great place to learn new things and add in things I already know. I don't stand to make a dime to be on here. Do you?

The od thing is , I am not even trying to sell , we are sold out for 3 years .
Just trying to bring over some of my points ,
Lightweigth
Lots of positive buoyancy
Lots of room and comfort
And performance to match this whole setup.
Some years ago although I have been a cat sailor since 1972
I thought that it was not possible to find a cruising cat that could also perform so I started after retirement to develop this cat ( dream )
without even looking at a possible production cat.
Once the first unit was almost produced other people started to show interest for this type of cat and thats how my retirement ended

Greetings

[David M]

Originally Posted by BlueRhapCity

The premise of the question is not one of cost. It's one of keeping a light weight cat from being loaded down.

Since you seem to have captured a well shared point of view I'm curious about a few other life saving products.

Do you have a survival suit?

Do you carry a Sat Phone?

Do you have a EPIRB?

Do you have a redundant or personal Epirb?

Do you use a weather routing service?

Do you have a SSB?

Do you have a ditch bag ALWAYS ready to go ahead of time?

I must admit to not having everything in this list. I don't mean to be confrontational, I'm really just curious because everyone sees safety from a different viewpoint.

Personally, I wouldn't want to do a circumnavigation on a Cat under 50 feet. I also just paid a bunch of money to put kevlar in the bow in case we hit a container.

Tim

Right now? No. I don't need those things given a run a research boat for a living locally. When I do retire and buy a cat, I certainly will have those things. I consider them to be basic safety equipment...including a ditch bag with the equipment necessary for getting my location out to the rest of the world. The cat will probably be a little over 50 feet as I would like to explore a number of different oceans and the Mediterranean although a circumnavigation does not interest me all that much although who knows?...I may change my mind.

I won't be concerned with going 1/10th of a knot slower because I have a liferaft onboard. The joy is in the journey and not getting there fast.

We do agree Tim

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by ssullivan

I didn't realize everyone on here was on for selfish reasons. What are yours?

I'm here to hook up with Babes