Coast Guard advice for all Cat Sailors

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by smj

Looks like 8% of the sinking’s while underway are caused by knockdowns/srorms.
https://auburnpub.com/lifestyles/rea...b54a3860e.html
Another wind induced sinking.
http://towndock.net/news/sailboat-sinks-off-oriental
http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapport.../m10f0003.html

In fairness- the first link is from BOAT US and I will wager a lot the 8% storm/knockdown all are wave induced. And I bet multis do better there in some cases
The second link is a Catalina 22. Like comparing cruising cats to a hobie w/r/t capsize risk
The 3rd link is a massive sailing ship with internal ballast. Different completely

I am with JEDI- a well found cruising sailboat with a keel [emoji3] won’t sink or capsize in a squall. Need to add waves to cause enough capsize risk to sink

[smj]

Originally Posted by malbert73

In fairness- the first link is from BOAT US and I will wager a lot the 8% storm/knockdown all are wave induced. And I bet multis do better there in some cases
The second link is a Catalina 22. Like comparing cruising cats to a hobie w/r/t capsize risk
The 3rd link is a massive sailing ship with internal ballast. Different completely

I am with JEDI- a well found cruising sailboat with a keel [emoji3] won’t sink or capsize in a squall. Need to add waves to cause enough capsize risk to sink

Your right, a good monohull is bulletproof......happy sailing

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by smj

Your right, a good monohull is bulletproof......happy sailing

Ha! Only I’ve never on this thread mentioned surviving firearm attacks. Or waves, rocks, reefs, rolly downwind passages, keelbolts.

Only a wind event squall.

Yes happy sailing, this decade in a mono, maybe next in a multi. Cheers!

[Factor]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

It’s silly to fool yourselves, shake it off. Reefs, rocks, submerged containers, wales etc. etc. so many things to talk about that sink mono’s but just accept that the wind is the monohull’s friend and the multi’s foe

Yeah dont know how those tris that sail round the world at 30 knots single handed in high latitudes survive.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Factor

Yeah dont know how those tris that sail round the world at 30 knots single handed in high latitudes survive.

They survive because they have very good sailors aboard. Or one of those fail safe devices that let the sails go in a gust.

Everyone here making fun of me is ignorant on the mechanics of monohull sailing or they would know that wind can’t capsize a modern monohull. It always is the waves. I know of one exception and it is telling that no one came up with it: a strong downdraft with vertical wind that is responsible for some freak accidents with airplanes and sailboats.

[smj]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

They survive because they have very good sailors aboard. Or one of those fail safe devices that let the sails go in a gust.



Everyone here making fun of me is ignorant on the mechanics of monohull sailing or they would know that wind can’t capsize a modern monohull. It always is the waves. I know of one exception and it is telling that no one came up with it: a strong downdraft with vertical wind that is responsible for some freak accidents with airplanes and sailboats.

Appears you are ignorant on the mechanics as you’ve already come up with an exception to your rule

[smj]

Originally Posted by smj

Appears you are ignorant on the mechanics as you’ve already come up with an exception to your rule

On edit maybe ignorant is to strong of a word, how about blinded by your prejudice?

[fxykty]

As a catamaran owner aspiring to permanent cruising (20 months to go) the Anna capsize a few years ago scares me. https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/capsize-of-anna/amp She was a performance oriented cruising cat like ours and had an experienced crew with more combined experience than us. There are techniques and SOPs and reef plans to be always ready for squalls and sudden gusts, but I certainly know from personal experience how you can get complacent on passage.

But otherwise, the risk of capsize in a multihull is no greater than the risk of sinking a monohull. Neither is zero nor much above zero. If anyone should know the risks it’s insurance companies, and AFAIK the rates are pretty much the same for cats and monos for bluewater coverage. We pay just under 1.5%.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

They survive because they have very good sailors aboard. Or one of those fail safe devices that let the sails go in a gust.

Everyone here making fun of me is ignorant on the mechanics of monohull sailing or they would know that wind can’t capsize a modern monohull. It always is the waves. I know of one exception and it is telling that no one came up with it: a strong downdraft with vertical wind that is responsible for some freak accidents with airplanes and sailboats.

And even gusts with a big vertical component will only get a mono to 90 degrees. When the sails hit the water, the wind can not drive them further below the surface.

Actually, the two times I had mast in the water knockdowns in my Catalina 22 were from such gusts, one at Yellow Bluff in SF bay, one in an inland lake under a kinda cliff like structure. I was pretty inexperienced at the time, but noticed that as the boat heeled, the rate of heel increased instead of the usual decrease as the wind spilled from the sails. This effect was so strong that I remember the feeling today, nearly 50 years later. In both cases, even this simple swing keel trailer sailor popped right back up when the short lived gust diminished.

And do note that in neither case did we sink, or even take on water below decks. In the lake incident a crewman did slip off the deck into the water, but because the boat stopped dead he immediately climbed back aboard (no lifelines on that boat). A friend with a sister ship had a more serious repercussion from a similar knockdown: his girlfriend was unfortunately perched on the head when it happened. The relationship suffered...

Jim

[smj]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

And even gusts with a big vertical component will only get a mono to 90 degrees. When the sails hit the water, the wind can not drive them further below the surface.



Actually, the two times I had mast in the water knockdowns in my Catalina 22 were from such gusts, one at Yellow Bluff in SF bay, one in an inland lake under a kinda cliff like structure. I was pretty inexperienced at the time, but noticed that as the boat heeled, the rate of heel increased instead of the usual decrease as the wind spilled from the sails. This effect was so strong that I remember the feeling today, nearly 50 years later. In both cases, even this simple swing keel trailer sailor popped right back up when the short lived gust diminished.



And do note that in neither case did we sink, or even take on water below decks. In the lake incident a crewman did slip off the deck into the water, but because the boat stopped dead he immediately climbed back aboard (no lifelines on that boat). A friend with a sister ship had a more serious repercussion from a similar knockdown: his girlfriend was unfortunately perched on the head when it happened. The relationship suffered...



Jim

This Catalina 22 did sink.
http://towndock.net/news/sailboat-sinks-off-oriental

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by smj

This Catalina 22 did sink.
Sailboat Sinks Off Oriental

Yep, it did.

And your point is...?

Look, we don't know anything about the actual circumstances of that sinking, and can't learn much from it without some detailed info. Things like was it a pop-top model and was the top open? Was the keel down or up? Was the foredeck hatch open or closed? This sort of info is necessary if one is to learn from the incident. Highlighting an incomplete news story and yelling "nyah nyah nyah, see the monohull sunk by a knockdown" isn't very useful.

I actually went through such a knockdown twice, once racing (SF bay), once casually day sailing on a lake, and I know what happened and what the repercussions were. (Non-pop-top, foredeck hatch closed, companionway open, keel down and locked) Does it prove anything? Nope, but it does show that a pretty light duty mono can be knocked down 90 degrees by a gust and recover on its own, even in the hands of a bungling novice sailor.

That was my point...what was yours?

Jim

[smj]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Yep, it did.



And your point is...?



Look, we don't know anything about the actual circumstances of that sinking, and can't learn much from it without some detailed info. Things like was it a pop-top model and was the top open? Was the keel down or up? Was the foredeck hatch open or closed? This sort of info is necessary if one is to learn from the incident. Highlighting an incomplete news story and yelling "nyah nyah nyah, see the monohull sunk by a knockdown" isn't very useful.



I actually went through such a knockdown twice, once racing (SF bay), once casually day sailing on a lake, and I know what happened and what the repercussions were. (Non-pop-top, foredeck hatch closed, companionway open, keel down and locked) Does it prove anything? Nope, but it does show that a pretty light duty mono can be knocked down 90 degrees by a gust and recover on its own, even in the hands of a bungling novice sailor.



That was my point...what was yours?



Jim

Obviously my point was that this same swing keel trailer sailor didn’t pop right back up like yours.
Did you read the article? Let me help you, here’s what they said the cause was “reported jammed mainsheet led to the boat getting knocked down, with water then flowing in the companionway.”
Sounds to me like operator error, but then again the flipping of the PDQ catamaran was also operator error, they had to much sail up.
So what I’ve learned is a catamaran with to much sail up can flip, and a monohull CAN sink from a wind induced knock down.
Glad we got that cleared up.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by smj

Obviously my point was that this same swing keel trailer sailor didn’t pop right back up like yours.
Did you read the article? Let me help you, here’s what they said the cause was “reported jammed mainsheet led to the boat getting knocked down, with water then flowing in the companionway.”
Sounds to me like operator error, but then again the flipping of the PDQ catamaran was also operator error, they had to much sail up.
So what I’ve learned is a catamaran with to much sail up can flip, and a monohull CAN sink from a wind induced knock down.
Glad we got that cleared up.

This may be the first time a cat owner on the forum has admitted cats can actually flip [emoji3]

I do think if I was knocked down to port and my port cockpit locker lid was unsecured, and somehow I was laid over for 10+ minutes by wind, my boat could sink.

But a Catalina 22? We owned one when I was young. Comparable to a beach cat in blue water capability so if this (or a wooden internally ballasted monohull) is the example not sure it’s a really great point

[Zzmeyer]

So here is my conclusion never having sunk a boat, but reading such sage musings. One, my mother said people who use the work "ignorant" are philistines. A lot of those in CF. It is virtually impossible for the wind alone to sink a monohull. It is also, virtually impossible for a catamaran to sink as a result of a keel falling off. According to ISAF special working group on keel failures there have been 72 keel separations in the past 35 years. I'm guessing most were monohulls and most resulted in either sinking or turning turtle. I can only conclude that both types of boats are death traps. There are so many ways to get in trouble "out there" that tipping over or having my keel fall off seldom, until now, have ever been a consideration.

[Jim Cate]

ZZ, I hope these musings have helped soothe your worries about monohull safety. I think the lessons are clear: don't go to sea in a Catalina 22 or a elderly timber boat with poorly secured internal ballast or a beach cat. I'm sure that you might have done so without this warning, so be duly grateful! Cruising monohulls and multihulls are a different case... now we gotta define what they are!

Jim