Coast Guard advice for all Cat Sailors

[geoleo]

This is all about Cat -shaming!

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by malbert73

True and there was this during what seemed to be a low level squall in weds night racing this summer on Chesapeake. All monos stayed afloat and self righted if knocked down. No one expected the wind burst. Operator error mainly with benefit of hindsight. Boat inversion terrifies me more than sinking, others can feel differently.

Attachment 200326

The key word is "racing."


a. Any experienced and multi sailor would have expected downdrafts with squalls in the area. Not likely, perhaps, but constantly prepared. I've been sailing multis for 40 years, and if there are squalls I am always prepared for a burst. You only have a second.

b. Racers press the boat hard, and multihulls sailors know this includes capsize. It is a different mindset than racing monos.


The odd thing is that F-boat racers get so used to having a float deeply buried, some forget that just a little more and it goes.


Don't buy a multi thinking you will get more speed unless you are also willing to take on a racing mentality when pushing. You may become a statistic.


I'm probably far more aware of multihull capsize risk than you are. I think about it every time I sail. That is part of sailing multihulls. I don't worry, per se, but I think about it constantly.

[admiralslater]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Good report.

NEVER underestimate a squall. Certain areas are well know for nasty ones, and the Great Lakes and Chesapeake Bay are two of them. If anything, I am consistently guilty of taking all sail down early. Most of the time it is an over reaction, but I don't mind.

I'll sail HARD in steady wind, but there's no fun in sailing around microbursts. Better to just motor for a while. In this case, there is no way of knowing what the peak wind speed may have been.


I will add that the PDQ has keels too far forward (you can see that in the image) because it was designed for drying out (I actually moved mine aft). It also has small rudders. Thus, in a hard gust, particularly if the transom began to lift and the boat was moving slowly, he would have had no ability to bear away. It probably rounded up.

ThinWater I enjoy your posts and your input in Practical Sailor but being the son of the designer of the Pdq36 , the brother of the president of Pdq and one of the three people involved in building the hull moulds for the 36 and the owner of hull 97 , I can categorically state that the keels where NOT situated on the PDQ 36 to facilitate winter storage!
The fact is my father is very devoted to sailing performance first hence the use of outboards etc .
I have sailed many 36s fitted with keels and always enjoyed the nice balance of the boat.
I dont know how the boats that you sailed where equipped but perhaps if they where to heavy that lead to your opinion.
Respectfully David

[admiralslater]

I am glad that all the crew are safe , I have hull 97 which is tricked out abit for racing with a full crew and full sail which in our case is more than a standard boat we can start kissing the wave tops in about 20 true . But I don't as it is not as fast for us . In cruiser mode we don't even think of it as we reef as soon as the word pops in my or my wife's head .
One thing that stood out for me and I say this without judgement, In a situation where you anticipate a large increase in wind laying off to furl seems like the wrong thing to me

[Trimaran Ken]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

If this cat was 36 foot and capsized in 40 knot winds then I would suggest that this boats design is badly flawed if it cannot sail or motor safely in 40 knots of wind.

You can flip any multihull or sink any monohull if the conditions are bad and the skill and caution level of the captain are not good.

It is not that hard to flip a trimaran if you fly a spinnaker in 30 to 40 mph gusts, but why would you want to do that?

Never think that boat design can always make up for poor seamanship, but obviously some boats are safer than others.

Ken
===

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by admiralslater

ThinWater I enjoy your posts and your input in Practical Sailor but being the son of the designer of the Pdq36 , the brother of the president of Pdq and one of the three people involved in building the hull moulds for the 36 and the owner of hull 97 , I can categorically state that the keels where NOT situated on the PDQ 36 to facilitate winter storage!
The fact is my father is very devoted to sailing performance first hence the use of outboards etc .
I have sailed many 36s fitted with keels and always enjoyed the nice balance of the boat.
I dont know how the boats that you sailed where equipped but perhaps if they where to heavy that lead to your opinion.
Respectfully David

I accept that. I only sailed on 36s a few times.


(PDQ 36 profile)
However, for good balance, they are absolutely too far forward on the PDQ 32, comically so when the self-tacking jib is used. The helm angle is too great and the boat just loves irons. A genoa helps, but not enough. The trailing edge was about 1 1/4" wide, which is really not efficient. Thus, sharpening the trailing edge, increasing area, and moving the CLR aft, combined with using a genoa, was a huge improvement. I'm very sure of this. The boat was on the light side, kept free of junk. No dragging keels.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Here's the problem with saying never underestimate squalls, or as others have pointed out (not necessarily about this thread) it's not the boat, its operator error.........

I said on this forum many times I'd like a big cat in the future, my only hesitation is me getting caught out by my own stupidity, tiredness, crew on watch while I'm a sleep etc, yes I know cats flip rarely.

Of course a mono wont absorb your error of bad navigation and running into a reef etc but often it will forgive you in the scenario of a micro burst.

NOT saying monos are better.

The principal difference being that if you make a mistake and sink a mono, everyone on this forum will say it was YOUR fault.

Make a mistake and capsize a cat and not only is it the fault of that particular boat, but EVERY multihull on earth is condemned because of it.

Notably, when "Bertie" was rolled over and sunk by a (probable) microburst, nobody was condemning that style of boat, saying it was dangerous or unsuited for passage making.

Double standards? Or do multihull sailors simply have better manners?

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

The principal difference being that if you make a mistake and sink a mono, everyone on this forum will say it was YOUR fault.



Make a mistake and capsize a cat and not only is it the fault of that particular boat, but EVERY multihull on earth is condemned because of it.



Notably, when "Bertie" was rolled over and sunk by a (probable) microburst, nobody was condemning that style of boat, saying it was dangerous or unsuited for passage making.



Double standards? Or do multihull sailors simply have better manners?

Actually, many condemned Bertie as an unseaworthy design with moveable internal ballast.
And it must have worked because I looked at the fall boat show lineups and all of the monohulls with loose internal ballast were pulled. [emoji3]


The crux of this is when sailors try to say capsize is impossible or 100% preventable for cats and dismiss the capsizes cited. I certainly accept sinking is not impossible for my mono and my cruising and safety plan reflects that

[StuM]

Originally Posted by malbert73

The crux of this is when sailors try to say capsize is impossible or 100% preventable for cats and dismiss the capsizes cited.

Got any examples of anyone saying that on CF?

[a64pilot]

One would assume that any mono sailboat that can be rolled and sunk with just wind, would be unseaworthy. Now add large waves and it becomes understandable as a breaking wave large enough can roll anything.
I don’t have a clue what Bertie was though.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

The principal difference being that if you make a mistake and sink a mono, everyone on this forum will say it was YOUR fault.

Make a mistake and capsize a cat and not only is it the fault of that particular boat, but EVERY multihull on earth is condemned because of it.

Notably, when "Bertie" was rolled over and sunk by a (probable) microburst, nobody was condemning that style of boat, saying it was dangerous or unsuited for passage making.

Double standards? Or do multihull sailors simply have better manners?

I dont believe there's double standards by the majority, I dont see it, I feel its a minority that say stupid things regarding multihulls.

And regarding cat owners having better manners, I certainly dont see that, some monohull owners have very bad manners but so do some cat owners, that's a people thing. Many monohull owners not only like cats but want one.

Maybe some are a tad to sensitive and have a confirmation bias happening, see what they want to see or focus to much on the comments made by a minority.

[tkeithlu]

Wearing an inflatable whenever on deck is no big deal. Why not do it? My parents made me wear a vest full time while sailing an Optimist Class Pram, which I never managed to flip. Later? even if you don't hit your head on the way in, wearing your vest makes straightening everything out a bunch easier if you don't have to worry about your own bouyancy.

[tkeithlu]

The next advice from SeaSlug is going to be for all cat sailors to carry a can opener.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

One would assume that any mono sailboat that can be rolled and sunk with just wind, would be unseaworthy. Now add large waves and it becomes understandable as a breaking wave large enough can roll anything.
I don’t have a clue what Bertie was though.

Bertie was a custom Spray replica wooden boat with internal ballast that was not fully secured. It was capsized in a squall off of Cape May (actually I think part of same weather events that capsized the trimaran in my post above)
https://coastguardnews.com/coast-gua...ey/2019/05/30/

Bertie translates to mainstream, keel ballasted monohulls about as poorly as a F27 trimaran to most cruising cats.
But the PDQ capsize hits a bit closer to home given it’s an established cruising cat and was on inshore waters

[malbert73]

More detail on Bertie
https://www.latitude38.com/lectronic...ff-new-jersey/