Coast Guard advice for all Cat Sailors

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Crikey's mate... this forum has over 100K members I believe. There are a few who do indeed gloat over cat capsizes and other issues, but to accuse the whole lot of us with that attitude is pretty inaccurate IMO. I've noted that when such gloating pops up, there are a few cat people who feel compelled to do as you are doing: bring up monohull sinkings and point out that the mono is stablest when sitting on the bottom.

The whole thing is silly. I'd sure be happier if Sea Slug stopped posting pix of inverted cats and if you would stop whinging about monohull folks persecuting the cat folks.

The forum would be a happier place, and I would not be involved in such discussions ever again. I think I'd like that.

Jim

Didn't think you'd be able to stick to facts. The only reference I've made to monohull sinkings in this thread has been to point out the difference in attitude some on this forum take. (Yes, its not everyone, most "members" rarely post at all.)

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by tp12

You are just as bad defending monohulls yet you point the finger a lot. Maybe you should follow your own advice?

In fairness to Jim I don't see him bad mouthing cats? If fact I do not get the sense at all that he dislikes them.

He reacts like I do (and shouldn't) to the emotional stupidity of several repeat offenders that seem to have their identity attached to the boat they sail.

I see no problem with posting a picture of a capsized cat for the sake of healthy discussion, although I'm sure Seaslugs motives are more about stirring some cat owners up than initiating healthy discussion. I also see no reason not to post sunk mono incidents or monos that have had their keels fall off. Why not discuss these things like adults rather than jumping up and down yelling "mummy hes picking on my boat".

I definitely dont agree that cats get targeted more than monos, certainly that's not the case in the real world, and theres definitely cat owners that make their prejudices public here when it comes to monos.....who cares!

[smj]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

I should know better than to wade in, but I don't agree with the logic of this. A well-piloted Cat knowing to take in sail, sure, no capsize. A well-found mono knowing to keep the hatches shut on passage or when things get sketch, no sinking. But all things being equal, if god forbid conditions get bad enough that the cat or the mono has to take serious (and usually passive) action under survival conditions, and gets rolled through no further fault of anyone, I don't see how there can be a debate: A mono can get rolled and return upright all day long (sans mast most likely), and still provide a shelter. A cat can get rolled exactly once, and will stay there. Look no further than the fastnet race... most if not all the abandoned monos were found floating happily days after their crews suffered in their liferafts.



Note this is not addressing anything else but form/ballast stability. Yes a cat might outrun a system (not a cruising cat loaded down but that's another point). Yes a broken mast can poke a hole in the hull of a mono (but not if it can be cut away). But bottom line, I'd rather be inside a dismasted mono rolling like a washing machine than clinging to the keel of an overturned cat in the same sea conditions.

The Fastnet race, 2 Prout catamarans sailed through the fleet with no problems at all. When they returned to shore I do believe they said the conditions were rather ghastly. I wonder if they were still able to boil some water for a cup of tea.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Sos

The report said the phone only had email which seems stranger than just texts.

Lucky they were close to help!

A voice call requires continuous two way communications or it starts breaking up and if bad enough, it will cut the call.

A text or email, is sent out as data packets with verification that they were received. If not received, it automatically retries until the message goes thru.

So it's very reasonable that a message would get thru when a voice call would not.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I dunno, mate. If you look carefully, I'm not "defending monohulls" nor am I denigrating multihulls. I'm trying to point out that the arguments given at great length are not supported by much logic and don't support the superiority of either form of boat. They both have advantages, they both have areas of risk, and either one poorly operated can kill you... and both have pretty good track records for getting their crews home safely. There are outliers on both sides, and some folks seem bent on equating them with the masses of boats that don't suffer sinking or flipping or any other grave situation. I honestly try to not make that sort of logical error. Perhaps I fail in my efforts, but I'm definitely not a zealot on either side.

There are a number of CFers who don't seem to be able to look at the differences without choosing sides and take all discussions personally. This is a sad situation, one which creates enmity and produces no increments of knowledge on either side.

I'd like it to be less emotional and divisive, but don't seem to be helping develop this condition, so I think I'll bow out now and leave it to you all to sort out.

Cheers,

Jim

I'm sorry but you very much defend monohulls, even when you don't need to. And I've looked very carefully, thank you. You are incapable of seeing your own bias.

You contribute to these conversations as much as anyone yet attempt to claim the high moral ground at the same time and point fingers and tell others how they should behave. It's very much do as I say and not as I do with you. Ridiculous, considering your privileged position on this forum.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by daletournier

In fairness to Jim I don't see him bad mouthing cats? If fact I do not get the sense at all that he dislikes them.

He reacts like I do (and shouldn't) to the emotional stupidity of several repeat offenders that seem to have their identity attached to the boat they sail.

I see no problem with posting a picture of a capsized cat for the sake of healthy discussion, although I'm sure Seaslugs motives are more about stirring some cat owners up than initiating healthy discussion. I also see no reason not to post sunk mono incidents or monos that have had their keels fall off. Why not discuss these things like adults rather than jumping up and down yelling "mummy hes picking on my boat".

I definitely dont agree that cats get targeted more than monos, certainly that's not the case in the real world, and theres definitely cat owners that make their prejudices public here when it comes to monos.....who cares!

Thanks for your PM but we disagree on this one, Dale. You're a good egg and I appreciate our conversations but Jim is out of line on this and regularly.

I've properly responded to your PM via PM.

I think you need some Aussie crew to help out - I could probably fly out and help [emoji23]

[Sailmon]

Rather than digressing into a debate about whose boat is safer, better, sturdier, perhaps the take away from the original post could be that ‘unexpected and potentially damaging or lethal occurrences are a part of the otherwise wonderful boating life that we share’. Whether a rogue wave, a microburst or a breaching whale - UNEXPECTED AND UNPREDICTABLE stuff happens. As I mentioned in an earlier post, we experienced this storm from the safety of our home - including the microburst reported by the weather service to be in the vicinity of 90 mph. Hundreds of trees came down and 40,000 people lost power.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by tp12

Thanks for your PM but we disagree on this one, Dale. You're a good egg and I appreciate our conversations but Jim is out of line on this and regularly.

I've properly responded to your PM via PM.

I think you need some Aussie crew to help out - I could probably fly out and help [emoji23]

Send me a photo of yourself in a bikini and we'll see......second thoughts please dont...lol.

[Lihuedooley77]

Very true, mother nature , king neptune and the wind gods can rise up and whack our okoles when ever they want. Big time !

Last night I was talking with Erica ( my lady and an excellent sailor, and pilot ) , about
this cat capsizing thread with not much warning. And how the skipper took care of his passengers and led them out to safety. And one passenger having the cell phone to call for rescue.

She, nodded and related a fast onset of strong winds and rain tale. This was long years ago, sailing to Catalina island from Newport Beach , Ca.

No weather warnings forecast. She and three of the Buccanetes, were sailing on a three day club cruise flotilla to party down at Two Harbors, West End , Catalina.

Great day, great sailing, all of them were in the sailing club and been thru the training. Which was very, very extensive. At the time of this incident, they all had been sailing and making ocean and coastal passages , and international bare boat sailing vacations for a few years.

Erica was skipper of one of our then new Newport 30, sloops.. Good sailing day.

About mid channel, she observes large dark clouds on their bow. The crew jumped to, and lowered and furled the 150 % ( hanked on) jib and lashed it to the life line, Engine on, now, They dropped the main and put in a cruising furl, and sail stopped
( sail ties) it to the boom. They rigged a down haul to the head of the main, and tightend the main halyard . They just had time to put on their foulie jackets when...

Whamo !!! Very very strong winds and torrents of rain hit them . They had heeded the 'by visual weather warnings ' of the approaching squall. As did the rest of the
loose formation flotilla.

She said it was a very short time, from when they spotted the dark clouds to when the
40 plus mph winds hit. She also said, that the four of them worked as a team to get those sails down, furled and secured.

She also thought that if the other people onboard had been a boat load of untrained non sailors, she doubts they would have been safe and squared away in time.

She kept the vessel into the wind, and slightly back winded the jib a bit to keep in on board the vessel for a quick take down, Also, she kept the vessel into the wind to lower the main. Again, this is a mono hull at sea.

Point being things happen fast at sea, and without any kind of warning of impending strong weather and seas and rain, action must be taken very quickly.

Some one said, and we also agree with and instructed this following idea.

.....IF YOU THINK ABOUT REEFING ...DO IT, NOW. Mono, or cat. ( Or getting the
sails down ..do it now ) Mother nature does not care about you, your type of vessel, or crew,or how much money you have....she will dole out equal tribulations to anyone who ventures out to sea.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is another great sea story, of the two of us, a 37 ft sloop, and an island chain, being surprised by a non forecast tropical depression that formed over the islands. ( St. Barts, French West Indies ) Winds up to 65 MPH. Too long a tale for right now, but falls into the non-forecast category.....and visually being aware.

Safe and great sailing adventures to you all, sailing cats, monohulls, and motor vessels.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

I should know better than to wade in, but I don't agree with the logic of this. A well-piloted Cat knowing to take in sail, sure, no capsize. A well-found mono knowing to keep the hatches shut on passage or when things get sketch, no sinking. But all things being equal, if god forbid conditions get bad enough that the cat or the mono has to take serious (and usually passive) action under survival conditions, and gets rolled through no further fault of anyone, I don't see how there can be a debate: A mono can get rolled and return upright all day long (sans mast most likely), and still provide a shelter. A cat can get rolled exactly once, and will stay there. Look no further than the fastnet race... most if not all the abandoned monos were found floating happily days after their crews suffered in their liferafts.



Note this is not addressing anything else but form/ballast stability. Yes a cat might outrun a system (not a cruising cat loaded down but that's another point). Yes a broken mast can poke a hole in the hull of a mono (but not if it can be cut away). But bottom line, I'd rather be inside a dismasted mono rolling like a washing machine than clinging to the keel of an overturned cat in the same sea conditions.

If you didn’t read the Queen’s Birthday Storm story 44C linked, the take away for the two cruising cats involved in rescues was that these two boats didn’t roll or pitchpole even though being totally uncontrolled. And all 7 monohulls involved in rescues rolled.

Cats are very difficult to pitchpole or roll when their sails are down. Yes, over canvassed cats can be capsized. But once the sails are down and a cat is passively lying to a drogue, or sea anchor, or even nothing at all and lying ahull, it’s very hard to change the sideways force of a breaking wave into a rotational force to roll the boat (and overcome the immense righting arm abeam and even higher righting arm bows to sterns). Cats don’t have deep keels to trip over. Minikeels are usually very shallow and daggerboards should be up in those conditions.

So chances are the storm wave that rolls a monohull through 360 degrees would push the cat several hundred metres to leeward. Neither boat will be comfortable, but both will likely survive upright.

[44'cruisingcat]

I doubt if "uncomfortable" would adequately describe being repeatedly rolled through 360 degrees.

[tp12]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Send me a photo of yourself in a bikini and we'll see......second thoughts please dont...lol.

I think we're both scared of that one!

[Seaslug Caravan]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I'd sure be happier if Sea Slug stopped posting pix of inverted cats .....

The forum would be a happier place, and I would not be involved in such discussions ever again. I think I'd like that.

Jim

Jim, The possibility of capsize, and the finality of capsize are part and parcel of the Multihull hullform.

There is a lot to be learnt from these events.

Its pretty short sited to wish posters not post on this aspect of multihull sailing.

This thread lead to a great post from a close associate of the owner, LUFF SHACK, and good points from CATSKETCHER.

Its sad as a long term multihull owner, that someone of your standing in this community, wishes that this thread and the information contained within not be made available to all. I myself have never understood why you as a dyed in the wool monohull sailor frequents the Multihull forum. I guess its one of lifes little mysteries.

[44'cruisingcat]

[QUOTE=Seaslug Caravan) as a long term multihull owner, [/QUOTE]

What boat (s)? Your continued refusal to state in what boats your claimed vast experience has been accumulated tends to hurt your credibility.

[Sos]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

A voice call requires continuous two way communications or it starts breaking up and if bad enough, it will cut the call.

A text or email, is sent out as data packets with verification that they were received. If not received, it automatically retries until the message goes thru.

So it's very reasonable that a message would get thru when a voice call would not.

That's worth knowing in an emergency situation - thanks.