Cost of power vs. sail

[shadow]

Thanks 44 for your quick reply. I only have had time on motor yachts and a few cats. I've never actually been on a monohull until just recently. It seems fun as well. I guess it really goes back to personal preference, needs both short and long term and overall budget.

Thanks again and cheers!!

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Hey Dave, maybe it's just that Aussie monohulls don't sail very well?

Oh I don't know about that, I have sailed on and owned some fine sailing Mono's.

None that would sail as well as your cat though.

The pic below is of a "Racing Mono" that I "Hammered" in a just cracked angle in the Whitsundays in my 30 foot cat that was loaded up and in cruising mode


http://www.destinationwhitsundays.com.au/sailing_whitsundays/racing_yacht_charters/hammer.htm


















Dave

[shadow]

Nice, to see and hear about real world comparisons.. Thanks!!

[Pura Vida]

Originally Posted by cat man do

Oh I don't know about that, I have sailed on and owned some fine sailing Mono's.

None that would sail as well as your cat though.

The pic below is of a "Racing Mono" that I "Hammered" in a just cracked angle in the Whitsundays in my 30 foot cat that was loaded up and in cruising mode
Dave

Somewhere out on the great ocean of the internet is a film of an Open 60, may have been Golding's boat, being passed by a Farrier Tri. I believe that both were racing at the time. How's the build coming along?

[2Hulls]

Originally Posted by Hubec

I drive a mono hull but I've observed many cats and their cruising behavior. I can tell you that while the average mono hull may be under sail only half the time while cruising, the average cat's sails are up less than a quarter of the time. Why? I'm not sure but here are some guesses:

• Cats are fast under power, they have two engines and thin hulls.
• Cats tend to be driven by older couples who's emphasis is on comfort.
• Cats have relatively aggressive rigs that are harder to manage, i.e.; tall mainsails with lots of roach and full battens. While the average new monohull has a conservative main with no battens and inmast furling.

If you're looking at a cat the logical arguments for sail seem to be even more tenuous than those for monohulls.

Of course if you don't get a sailboat, all you've got is a barge with thrusters bolted to the back. - just one sailor's opinion of course.

Well, quite some over-generalizations here.

I'll take them one-by-one:

I can tell you that while the average mono hull may be under sail only half the time while cruising, the average cat's sails are up less than a quarter of the time.

I presume you mean while sailing?

I haven't kept data as you imply you have, but my guess is there is not much difference in "sailing" time between cruisng monos and cruising cats. Where and when did you do your research?

Cats are fast under power, they have two engines and thin hulls.

Smart cat sailors motor with one engine. The second doesn't get you much more speed. Regardless, it seems to me I see cats - if they're motoring - are doing so upwind and monos are doing so upwind AND dead downwind. Again, I haven't done the research.

Cats tend to be driven by older couples who's emphasis is on comfort.

You're not serious, right? If they ARE sailed by older couples, I'll say it's because they're wiser.

Cats have relatively aggressive rigs that are harder to manage, i.e.; tall mainsails with lots of roach and full battens. While the average new monohull has a conservative main with no battens and inmast furling.

I think your premise is incorrect. Cats might have taller rigs, but you rarely see ketches or cutter rigs. Cat jibs tend to be smaller than those huge overlapping gennys typical of monos. Nonetheless, cats with tall rigs typically have two part main halyards to accomodate the mainsail weight with an electric halyard winch to boot. You can keep your in-mast furling. Simply having one sounds like a good reason not to use it - what do you do when it won't furl back up?

If you're looking at a cat the logical arguments for sail seem to be even more tenuous than those for monohulls.

Typical mono sailor attitude who feels threatened that somebody else has found a better idea.

Dave

[High Cotton]

Never had my SELDEN furling jam..... I'm not saying it's not possible, but never happened to me. Just for info, besides the lines going to the cockpit, there is a winch on the mast which I've never had to use.
Having said that, roller furling makes my cruise soooooooo easy, not to mention the safety issues during a blow.

[TaoJones]

Originally Posted by shadow

Not to sound like a total noob, which I am. I only know of CATS made in the UK, France, OZ, NZ and SA. Which ones are made in the US?? Maybe I have seen them and just didn't know that they were US.

Cheers.

From today's 'Lectronic Latitude, comes word of a catamaran built, literally, in the US - though it is of Australian (Schionning) design:

~ ~ ~

"Photos of the Day: Sea Level Launched

"December 5, 2007 – Mare Island, Vallejo

(Click on the photo to enlarge it.)

"Jim Milski's new self-built catamaran Sea Level tasted the water for the first time on December 3 at Mare Island.
© 2007 Jim Milski

"It was a long time coming, but Coloradan Jim Milski's dream catamaran touched water for the first time on December 3. . . . "

~ ~ ~

For the rest of the story, and some nice photos, go to:

Latitude 38 - The West's Premier Sailing & Marine Magazine

TaoJones

[Weyalan]

I think we are getting a bit side-tracked into the "monohull versus multihull" argument. Bear in mind folks; this is the "power versus sail" thread.

I still maintain, and have yet to see any creditable argumetn to the contrary, that if you buy 2nd hand sails, that power can be anywhere close to sail costs.

[Hubec]

2Hulls; wow, I don't know where to start. You seem to have entirely miss interpreted my post and fabricated some sort of malevolent cat hating attitude for me. For the record, I think cats are great, I just didn't get one primarily because monos are cheaper. My "research" as you put it, is based on casual observation of cats that I've sailed with and the people who sailed them. Take that for what it's worth, and you might want to take a pill while you're at it. Yeesh

Actually, looking over what I've posted I never mentioned one other thing that may explain the difference; The average North American coastal cruiser is motoring most of the time whether it's a mono or a multi. So it probably just boils down to the fact that most multis go plenty fast with the engine(s) alone, while the average mono needs to be motor sailing to make reasonable speed.

[2Hulls]

I was just commenting on your over-generalizations and likely exaggerations. Cat sails up only a quarter of the time? C'mon. Maybe you took a "pill".

Dave

[sailvi767]

I have over the years sailed cats and mono's of many types. I owned a 50 foot Mono in charter and replaced it with a 45 foot cat. I will replace that when the time comes and it may well be with a mono again. I also own a smaller powerboat and my uncle has a larger Carver. If you are buying a boat to sit at the dock it may be true a power boat is cheaper. Once the boat leaves the dock the cost benefit swings to the sailboat. The more the boat is off the dock the cheaper the sailboat becomes.

As far as the mono verses cat there are a bunch of false statements. The 50 Beneteau I had in charter would motor faster then any cat I have been on. It did a solid 9 knots without flogging the engine and would pass any other cat I saw out there in the Charter fleets up to 47 feet long. Comparing a similar priced mono to a cat I think will in general get you a boat that motors faster if you buy the mono. We are not talking much here however. The Cat I have motors nicely at 8 knots on two motors and 6.5 knots on one motor. I used the monohull 38 weeks over 5 years for personal use while it was in charter. So far I have used the cat 6 weeks. I have actually sailed the cat a more the the monohull and expect that trend will continue. Not having to worry about having everything stowed perfectly causes me to sail more especially on short legs. Performance to windard is about the same as the mono time wise. I am not pro mono or cat. I am pro sailing. Both boats have things I like and again my next boat might be a mono again.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Weyalan

I still maintain, and have yet to see any creditable argumetn to the contrary, that if you buy 2nd hand sails, that power can be anywhere close to sail costs.

Which boats are you using for your comparison?

Thats fine if you totally ignore this comment

Sail is arguably cheaper as you can get second hand sails cheap and new sails won't make that much difference to performance on a mono.

But if sailing a fast performance Multi, those second hand sails will make a big difference to performance and I believe that for me anyway, there was no way that I would be happy with second hand sails (if I could find a set to suit) after having experienced what new ones are like.

And totally ignore the $60,000+ initial expenditure on rig, sails and deck hardware for a boat like mine.

Obviosly that is much less on a smaller boat, but that would not fit my requirments

In an earlier post I suggested re-investing the rig and future sail/maintenance cost's which would go a long way towards paying for fuel as well.

Dave

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Hubec

The average North American coastal cruiser is motoring most of the time whether it's a mono or a multi. So it probably just boils down to the fact that most multis go plenty fast with the engine(s) alone, while the average mono needs to be motor sailing to make reasonable speed.

So if building, ditch the rig and use the motor (that you have alrady paid for) and use rig and sail money for diesel.

Those small diesels in your mono and multi dont use much, I have a mate who is off cruising in a light 42 ft foam sandwich powercat that only has 37hp X2 (which get used one at a time)

Dave

[shadow]

Thanks for that shot, TaoJones. That is one great looking CAT!!

[Tropic Cat]

Originally Posted by Hubec

I drive a mono hull but I've observed many cats and their cruising behavior. I can tell you that while the average mono hull may be under sail only half the time while cruising, the average cat's sails are up less than a quarter of the time. Why? I'm not sure but here are some guesses:

Speaking for myself, I find that unless I'm sailing in a good breeze, the apparent wind comes forward pretty quickly on a cat. My cat doesn't go to weather very well and if it's a passage, it's sometimes faster to do it under power. As to agressive rigs... I really haven't seen that. Most high volume production cats are made for the charter industry these days and they make them as easy to manage as they can for their customers. Performance cats not withstandng.