Cruising cat - sub 90 degrees tack upwind

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Some time ago I offered to race your fantastically performing Lagoon in my overloaded performance cat.

You went strangely silent for quite a while.

The offer still stands....

well, i cant see how we can level the field. We are loaded 2.5T and boat is made for max load 4.7T. And is predominant use is to cross oceans multi weeks non-stop trip and carry lots of stuff.

Yours is different design optimized for coastal sailing. Much less payload.

Therefore you are faster in most conditions. But we can go further with more toys.

different program.

But if we happen to be on same trip, we can sure try to see fastness of boats. My guess, you will be ~ 20 % faster.

[Factor]

44c is a liveaboard home, everything they own is on the boat. They have cruised off shore, Really dont understand your argument

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Factor

44c is a liveaboard home, everything they own is on the boat. They have cruised off shore, Really dont understand your argument

my argument is called rating. Not a racer but what i have read every race has it to level the field as these two boats are quite different.

Not interested in racing, unless it happens we are on multiday passage when i have free hands.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

well, i cant see how we can level the field. We are loaded 2.5T and boat is made for max load 4.7T. And is predominant use is to cross oceans multi weeks non-stop trip and carry lots of stuff.

Yours is different design optimized for coastal sailing. Much less payload.

Therefore you are faster in most conditions. But we can go further with more toys.

different program.

But if we happen to be on same trip, we can sure try to see fastness of boats. My guess, you will be ~ 20 % faster.

Level the field? If you want you can empty your boat completely. Even leave the dinghy behind...

You said something about a wife loading the boat up anyway, and crappy old Laggon being faster upwind...
My wife has had 11 years living aboard full time to load the boat. In all honesty I'd say my tools, spares and toys would add about as much weight as her provisioning and stuff.

Even so, I'm of the opinion that our overloaded boat, which actually was designed to sail (not motor) oceans, will sail faster than a boat designed to be cheaply mass-produced for the charter market, with the emphasis on fitting the maximum possible beds and heads rather than sailing ability, even if you completely unloaded that boat.

The offer still stands....

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

my argument is called rating. Not a racer but what i have read every race has it to level the field as these two boats are quite different.

Not interested in racing, unless it happens we are on multiday passage when i have free hands.

I'd say your argument is called BS.

You keep saying how a Laggon will be faster than an overloaded performance cat. But when given the chance to prove it you want some kind of handicapping?

[Training Wheels]

And he makes the assertion that people with performance boats aren’t able to cruise without being grossly overloaded, but claims he keeps his Lagoon very light, at around half load.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

And he makes the assertion that people with performance boats aren’t able to cruise without being grossly overloaded, but claims he keeps his Lagoon very light, at around half load.

Yes, it is weird as his stated 2500kg load is well within the load capacity for virtually any performance cruising cat over 40 feet. So that load doesn’t overload the performance cat.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I'd say your argument is called BS.

You keep saying how a Laggon will be faster than an overloaded performance cat. But when given the chance to prove it you want some kind of handicapping?

not interested in racing . But I am sure you are faster, so there is nothing to prove.

This thread has improved knowledge about the subject for me. Hope other dont see it as only pissing competition.

ALthough this topic was intended for bigger space fixed keel cruising cats as some call them condomarans, most interest from owners of faster boats.

this are my thoughts at present
Daggerboard cats - they are made to go fast on expense of space and daggerboards used as flexible keels. Work better than fixed keel where running seas as can grab deeper unlike fixed that can go down only say 1.3m. Speed first and optimum tack angle around 110.

fixed keel - condomarans - use fixed keel to climb steep upwind when conditions allow and optimal tacking angles are likely less than 110, possibly 90. This is very different than what is official knowledge of these cats - suggesting 50 apparent angle is the best and anything below 45 apparent is waste of time as one will get 20 degrees leeway. In saying that there was no other condomaran than 2 x lagoons able to provide any evidence of this behaviour. Does not mean only certain lagoons can do that. It can also mean that owners of other condos do not sail optimally upwind following 50 app wisdom.

Hull width and ratio - Django provided some facts about hull speed that are quite against mainstream. As he is naval architect one should take it seriously. basically wider hulls perform better because create lesser bow wave. I observed today wave when doing 7-8 kn and indeed less hull is in water than when not moving. So this physical law is helping condomarans to perform better than one would think and again clashes with accepted wisdom.

As keel cats can do sub 90 tacks, that actually means leeway of keel cats must be small. Again countering collective wisdom.

I plan to go Lake Macquaire - guaranteed no current - and do another upwind test to see if 90 tacks are reality on L 400 or was just string of luck that boat was in favourable current every time my tacks below 90 deg.

[GRIT]

I'll be interested in seeing your results. Thanks for putting yourself "out there" with your testing.

Cheers.
Paul.

[44'cruisingcat]

You know I'll be faster? You mean you didn't actually say this?:

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

......... and your worst nightmare is here. One day lagoon with crappy old sails comes along and beat you upwind as your boat struggles with weight

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

You know I'll be faster? You mean you didn't actually say this?:

i mentioned lagoon with crappy sails. My sails are in quite good condition, so I meant generic lagoon and not mine.

going back to hull shape, this slow mode would happen when hulls sink beyond hull curved shape and bow wave increases at much faster rate than when in 'curved hull' area. As speed does not increase, rigging would have to take all the beating.

Condo cats have more curved area - fatter - and therefore tolerate overload better. But that 'fatness' comes at a cost in othere conditions.

[smj]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i mentioned lagoon with crappy sails. My sails are in quite good condition, so I meant generic lagoon and not mine.



going back to hull shape, this slow mode would happen when hulls sink beyond hull curved shape and bow wave increases at much faster rate than when in 'curved hull' area. As speed does not increase, rigging would have to take all the beating.



Condo cats have more curved area - fatter - and therefore tolerate overload better. But that 'fatness' comes at a cost in othere conditions.

Nice try at a save.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by smj

Nice try at a save.

Agree, A for effort, but I still remember the multiple times that "performance" cats have been denigrated with the suggestion that this particular Lagoon is not only faster but performs better in every respect.
I admire the improved sailing ability that the owner has achieved, but really??

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by smj

Nice try at a save.

Subject of the thread is sub 90 tacks. I am happy with my boat performance, actually discovered that extra functionality upwind and really excited about it.
But aware upwind is such small % of sailing that is really academic, for us at least.

I have absolutely no interest in racing. Unless we happen to be on same path and I am in a mood. Will be realistic only in multiday passage when boats will be prepared properly.

So, yeah one day when we all sail for Fiji or back, that's the one I would like to participate.

Get a rally going and I will join and will sail best/fastest/safest I can.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Daggerboard cats - they are made to go fast on expense of space and daggerboards used as flexible keels. Work better than fixed keel where running seas as can grab deeper unlike fixed that can go down only say 1.3m. Speed first and optimum tack angle around 110.

High aspect ration daggers will always work better to windward than low aspect ration minikeels. An interesting comparison is the Seawind 1160/1190, same hulls, same engines etc. The 1190 has a slightly taller rig and has a bit more carbon, but the actual hull shapes are identical, the 1160 has LAR keels and the 1190 has Daggerboards. In the actual real world, boat on boat, the 1160 on 1190, the 1190 will point 3-5 degrees higher in all conditions and go slightly faster doing it.

fixed keel - condomarans - use fixed keel to climb steep upwind when conditions allow and optimal tacking angles are likely less than 110, possibly 90.

LAR will never get as high as HAR Daggers, never.

This is very different than what is official knowledge of these cats - suggesting 50 apparent angle is the best and anything below 45 apparent is waste of time as one will get 20 degrees leeway. In saying that there was no other condomaran than 2 x lagoons able to provide any evidence of this behaviour.

Everyone of them I have sailed near in the same conditions actually struggles to make any VMG to windward,

Hull width and ratio - Django provided some facts about hull speed that are quite against mainstream. As he is naval architect one should take it seriously. basically wider hulls perform better because create lesser bow wave.

Seriously?