Cruising cat - sub 90 degrees tack upwind

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by cwjohm

Yes, I now understand these displays were in m/s, not kn.

Accordingly, the performance stats quoted here by django are reasonable.

What, therefore, is the point made in this thread. Sub 90 degree tacks are possible at low SOG but not optimal for VMG. As django says at low SOG leeway pushes 45 degree tacks to 50 degrees.

The comparison to O55 is meaningless due to beginner crew with new boat.

It seems a whole lot of discussion over nothing of any substance.

absolutely disagree. It shows that if one is not prepared to 'learn the boat' then expect to be slower than much cheaper boat in hands of talented sailor.

I think there is 20 to 30 % of performance gain by truly mastering the boat. Sounds much cheaper than paying extra 1m usd. But then some have too much money so it is all good.

[Jim Cate]

Standard advice go 50 app with condocat turns out total rubbish = attempt by performance cat manufacturers to artificially lower the hurdle and they look better.

That is really a stretch, mate, one worthy of the big Q.

Jim

[smj]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

absolutely disagree. It shows that if one is not prepared to 'learn the boat' then expect to be slower than much cheaper boat in hands of talented sailor.



I think there is 20 to 30 % of performance gain by truly mastering the boat. Sounds much cheaper than paying extra 1m usd. But then some have too much money so it is all good.

Later in the Outremer video it shows the novice sailors doing a steady 17-18 kts. How many times have you done that on your Lagoon?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

point of this discussion is for keeled boats approach upwind. It seems keeled boats can do quite well upwind by pointing higher and actually having better VMG as leeway is less than what is commonly accepted. Most people on this thread here have daggerboards, looking to me they are a bit surprised about the numbers that can be achieved by keeled boats.

Standard advice go 50 app with condocat turns out total rubbish = attempt by performance cat manufacturers to artificially lower the hurdle and they look better.

eh well, we can only expect more fake disbelief.

So you take "advice" from someone who didn't design or build your boat over that of the designers and builders of it?

I seriously doubt Outremer, Gunboat etc could give a rat's arse about what angles you sail your boat at.

And the disbelief isn't fake, trust me. You're welcome to compare your boats upwind performance to mine, on the water, any time.

Actually I think we did sail upwind not far apart on Sydney harbour a couple of years ago. You sailed into Sydney heads a couple of miles in front, and we'd caught up by Manly, as I recall. Didn't know it was you at the time, but I remember the boat name in the photo in the other thread.

[Factor]

I will walk naked backwards to Bourke if any minikeel boat can sail better to windward than a dagger board boat, given similar quality sails, and nobody wants to see that. The suggestion that a LAR foil is more efficient than a HAR foil from a hydrodynamic perspective is news to every yacht and aircraft designer.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

So you take "advice" from someone who didn't design or build your boat over that of the designers and builders of it?

I seriously doubt Outremer, Gunboat etc could give a rat's arse about what angles you sail your boat at.

And the disbelief isn't fake, trust me. You're welcome to compare your boats upwind performance to mine, on the water, any time.

Actually I think we did sail upwind not far apart on Sydney harbour a couple of years ago. You sailed into Sydney heads a couple of miles in front, and we'd caught up by Manly, as I recall. Didn't know it was you at the time, but I remember the boat name in the photo in the other thread.

Yeah, you could be right re sail. But from what i remember you sailed actually ddw, if that was you. And I was practising anchoring with main only, no engines.

Re daggerboard boats, you could also be right. Until you are happy with your boat performance, it is all good.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

That is really a stretch, mate, one worthy of the big Q.

Jim

thanks

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by smj

Later in the Outremer video it shows the novice sailors doing a steady 17-18 kts. How many times have you done that on your Lagoon?

i have not, ever, we depower at 12 kn sharp. I am not questioning boats abilities, or crew abilities, but finer part of sailing which upwind belongs to, cant be mastered day 1. Reaching would be easier is my guess.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Factor

I will walk naked backwards to Bourke if any minikeel boat can sail better to windward than a dagger board boat, given similar quality sails, and nobody wants to see that. The suggestion that a LAR foil is more efficient than a HAR foil from a hydrodynamic perspective is news to every yacht and aircraft designer.

you are right but in 15++kn winds condos are not underpowered any longer and differences could get really small in modest seas. Slower but sharper angle is the receipe.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

you are right but in 15++kn winds condos are not underpowered any longer and differences could get really small in modest seas. Slower but sharper angle is the receipe.

Flat water yes, but in wind wave water no way as the slow speed will lead to increased leeway due to hydro and aero dynamic drag. That’s physics. More power won’t help much - form drag is form drag.

You and Django must be outliers cause I gotta tell you when the wind is light, or the wind is 15+ knots in open water, or the course is upwind, I see the vast majority of cats motoring. Designers expect that and provide ginormous fuel tanks and large motors to allow for all the motoring.

Very glad that you’re enjoying sailing in every which direction your course leads you.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Flat water yes, but in wind wave water no way as the slow speed will lead to increased leeway due to hydro and aero dynamic drag. That’s physics. More power won’t help much - form drag is form drag.

You and Django must be outliers cause I gotta tell you when the wind is light, or the wind is 15+ knots in open water, or the course is upwind, I see the vast majority of cats motoring. Designers expect that and provide ginormous fuel tanks and large motors to allow for all the motoring.

Very glad that you’re enjoying sailing in every which direction your course leads you.

that is my understanding also - in rough stuff, that is where your type of boat will outperform by large margin. When sleek profile and sturdy outremer construction matter. And we will start motoring way sooner because our large buoyant hulls make more powerful swings and detach air from sails and will just tire sails and structure.

I have long ignored upwind, but lately learned couple things and now upwind is more attractive sailing option. But yeah wide hulls 40 footer has limitations in that regard, of course, and i am well aware of them.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Yeah, you could be right re sail. But from what i remember you sailed actually ddw, if that was you. And I was practising anchoring with main only, no engines.

Re daggerboard boats, you could also be right. Until you are happy with your boat performance, it is all good.

Nope, there was a northerly, (which is why we anchored at Manly) and from North Head to Manly is upwind. At the time I estimated our VMG to windward to be somewhere approaching double yours.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Nope, there was a northerly, (which is why we anchored at Manly) and from North Head to Manly is upwind. At the time I estimated our VMG to windward to be somewhere approaching double yours.

you could be right. There was decent gust and i followed reefing guidelines - loosened main.

Well done !

[arsenelupiga]

Done test in Lake Mcqaire. Patchy winds but managed to get drawn legit results. Wind 6 - 8 kn during test. Tack angles 2 x 91 degrees. Used apparent wind 32 on AP. Used speed from GPS as wheel stopped work. More precise as no current. This translates into 1.6 to 2 kn VMG.

It means boat sailed at 43 true angle, so with no leeway we should see 86 degrees tack. But we have seen 91. Therefore leeway in such conditions is 2.5 degrees. This is much less than what literature says - 10 degress +.

If we get chance will repeat my test with gennaker. Now I am pretty sure sub 90 tacks are real and that is where best VMG lies for our boat.

Have also checked under water shape and it does makes sense boat does so well upwind. Keels are quite large compared to body, especially as hulls are shallow. We draw only 1.25 m (measured with 2.5 t of stuff). red line is actual waterline.

[Factor]

If its not speed through water then its all a bit pointless