Cruising cat - sub 90 degrees tack upwind

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Full

A newbie question here...

Considering the OP's thread's subject, do you experienced folks think if 1190's and 105Mc's designs would help? Do you think these two can have pointing angles close, or even better than, some fin keel monohulls?

have any evidence of < 90 degrees tacks & associated speeds over ground for these boats?

[lyl]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

have any evidence of < 90 degrees tacks & associated speeds over ground for these boats?

Asking me?

No.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Full

Asking me?

No.

only 2 owners of keeled cats reported ability of sub 90 tacks so far. Lagoon 380 and Lagoon 400. Ability proves really beneficial for VMG, contrary to 44c comments.

If cat sails at 43 apparent, like suggested by seawind, still cant beat our 2 kn VMG in 8 kn true. Note we are liveaboards, fouled bottom and not ideal wind.

Best cat can do at 43 apparent in 8 kn true is go 5 kn and this makes VMG 1.83.

See what I mean ?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Best cat can do at 43 apparent in 8 kn true is go 5 kn and this makes VMG 1.83.

See what I mean ?

No, in 8 kts true and 43 apparent we'd be sailing at around 8 kts. VMG to windward would be near zero.

https://youtu.be/ki6hws2_DL4

This is what I've been saying all along. Sailing slow relativel to wind speed makes it easier to achieve smaller tacking angles. Conversely, a boat that can sail high percentages of windspeed must point very high to achieve decent tacking angles. Or slow down.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

No, in 8 kts true and 43 apparent we'd be sailing at around 8 kts. VMG to windward would be near zero.



https://youtu.be/ki6hws2_DL4



This is what I've been saying all along. Sailing slow relativel to wind speed makes it easier to achieve smaller tacking angles. Conversely, a boat that can sail high percentages of windspeed must point very high to achieve decent tacking angles. Or slow down.

Nice boat. Now that’s a cat I could own...

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

No, in 8 kts true and 43 apparent we'd be sailing at around 8 kts. VMG to windward would be near zero.

https://youtu.be/ki6hws2_DL4

This is what I've been saying all along. Sailing slow relativel to wind speed makes it easier to achieve smaller tacking angles. Conversely, a boat that can sail high percentages of windspeed must point very high to achieve decent tacking angles. Or slow down.

nice sailing. reminds me that i have not tried to sail these angles with gennaker at all.

We all try to make best VMG to windward and for our type of boat is steep climb but slower. Ends up with decent and useable VMG.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Nice boat. Now that’s a cat I could own...

Thanks! Not for a while yet though.. ;-)

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Thanks! Not for a while yet though.. ;-)

Nice to see you enjoying boating for decade or so, and still looking forward. Do you find east coast interesting enough after all this time?

We are now in year 7 of ownership and keen as ever, or even more, to continue. Just cant believe that 1 week after our purchase i called broker and asked him to sell the boat as i got afraid of maintenance

[44'cruisingcat]

Yep, still enjoy the East coast. We did spend 5 months in Vanuatu, but we really prefer Qld. Every good anchorage over there has a village. The NiVan people are great, bur sometimes you like to be alone. In Qld you can often have fantastic anchorages all to yourself.

We're into snorkelling too, and the GBR is in much better shape than most of the coral around Vanuatu.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Yep, still enjoy the East coast. We did spend 5 months in Vanuatu, but we really prefer Qld. Every good anchorage over there has a village. The NiVan people are great, bur sometimes you like to be alone. In Qld you can often have fantastic anchorages all to yourself.

We're into snorkelling too, and the GBR is in much better shape than most of the coral around Vanuatu.

yeah, similar experience for us. This is hands down the best lifestyle one can have in Australia, so why quit.

[RunawayC47]

We have been sailing our Conser 47 for 20 years now. A very different type of skinny hulled cat. 3’ at the widest at waterline. Anyone out there sailing one as well?
She can be a real monster when the wind picks up.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by RunawayC47

We have been sailing our Conser 47 for 20 years now. A very different type of skinny hulled cat. 3’ at the widest at waterline. Anyone out there sailing one as well?
She can be a real monster when the wind picks up.

what is your best VMG upwind in 10 kn or less true ?

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by RunawayC47

We have been sailing our Conser 47 for 20 years now. A very different type of skinny hulled cat. 3’ at the widest at waterline. Anyone out there sailing one as well?
She can be a real monster when the wind picks up.

looking at your boat type in pics, bridgedeck clearance is an issue in developed seas. Sure, you try to run away with yor speed but as we all know not always possible. It is true that with improving forecasts such boat is also more viable for ocean sailing.

[RunawayC47]

Keeping you weight down is important in all cats but especially in narrow hull cats. The narrow hulls cut the waves better and track much better. Dagger boards are a plus upwind over mini keels.
The original Conser’s were daggerboard, wing mast with retractable outboards for day sailing. Built very light and fast for day charters in Maui where there are 2 run by Paragon. There is one in Barbados sailed by Captain Ron called Why Knot.
I have sailed on all 3.
Why Knot in Barbados was incredible sailing at 18 knots in 15 knots true with 22 people on board.
With the help of John Conser I we extended my sterns 3’ a few years back. That made a big difference and eliminated all hard slams and now only a rare light one. It allowed the boat to handle the weight of diesels and cruising gear.
If you ever get to Barbados check out his day sail. Great captain and sailor.

[RunawayC47]

The question asked is best VMG when your course is directly into the wind. The issue becomes the faster you sail the more you pull the apparent wind forward forcing you to fall off. If you are sailing at true wind speed your true wind angle is double your apparent wind angle. So 30 apparent is 60 true.
As such your tack will be 120 degrees.
We can sail 35 apparent but beyond that even with great sails we will start to stall having to play the wind and wind speeds are much higher than true. Wave action is also much more on the nose which can be uncomfortable off shore.
The best strategy is to use long term predictions to set up your tacks off shore.
In confined costal waters you can’t do that so that is why so many boats end up motoring more than they would like to.
In answer a VMG directly upwind of 3.5 is great. You would be sailing 10 knots at 35 apparent from my calculations.
Apparent wind is everything and using it off the wind is a game changer. The faster the boat the more important. It is something most sailors never truly understand to use properly.