Cruising cat - sub 90 degrees tack upwind

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Just that 6.35 VMG upwind is race boat territory so hard to believe when you put it out there

well i am really modest. See these guys pushing L 400 at around 36 app 10 kn boat speed in around 30kn true doing 6.8 kn VMG. Also 18 kn under parasailor on 17 kn apparent.

https://youtu.be/RlQcTerEs_U

L 400 these days are primarily used as kondos on water and one easily misses their forgotten sailing abilities.

[GRIT]

I really hate to get into this discussion.

I know you love your boat; but you sound like a soap box preacher on the corner of a busy street, proselytizing to whomever will listen.

The SOG data in the video shows about 2.5 knots less than what you're saying. I'd guess the paddle wheel isn't set up properly.
And I'm sure they're surfing...

Added to that is the fact that they are showing the speed for such a short period of time. I could do that too and show 15-20 knots of speed, at very close angles to the wind, in less wind than you'd think possible.

To cherry pick milliseconds of good speeds, to put on video, is a big peeve of mine. It's immensely deceiving. Show me a minute or two focused on your instrumentation, and include SOG and audio, and I'll believe it's true. Have you done that on this thread yet? I'll confess to skipping much of the thread, and I even put you on ignore for a while; but please let me know which post shows a video of your boat doing what you say it can do.

For goodness sakes, we all love our boats. Let me be the first one to say: I DO NOT OWN THE FASTEST CATAMARAN ON CF.

Having built: a fairly light (8 tonne, half load), reasonably powered (Bruce #1.33 with 100% jib), fairly skinny hulled ( 11.8:1), 15m long hulls with 6m bridgedeck... I can do a steady 18 knots in 30 knots of wind, if I want to push the boat. Normally I'd have two or three reefs in by then, and be sailing at about 15kn, off the wind. With a big spinnaker, and pushing the envelope... who knows?

Upwind at 35 AWA; 10kn boatspeed in 20kn TWS... we can do that with two reefs in the main, and a full jib, if we focus on trim, and the waves are small.

I love our boat, and I'm beginning to think it's a fairly fast one; but enough's known about catamaran design to say my boat's not going to out point, or out sail, a Schionning waterline 1480, or Oram 44C, and the like.

Facts are facts. Perhaps you should change your focus to enjoying your boat, however it sails. If she's really fast, and you're passing everyone in sight, then the story will tell itself.

Cheers, and stay well.
Paul.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Just that 6.35 VMG upwind is race boat territory so hard to believe when you put it out there

L400 RR Light

Originally Posted by GRIT

If she's really fast, and you're passing everyone in sight, then the story will tell itself

Yes, I've been patiently following this boat too, but now it seems like it's more than past time to see this performance against other boats please, even in a cruising sense.

And in addition, instead of just small isolated snapshots, passage times normally show up a fast (or slow) boat (or sailor) in a pretty obvious way.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by GRIT

I really hate to get into this discussion.

I know you love your boat; but you sound like a soap box preacher on the corner of a busy street, proselytizing to whomever will listen.

The SOG data in the video shows about 2.5 knots less than what you're saying. I'd guess the paddle wheel isn't set up properly.
And I'm sure they're surfing...

Added to that is the fact that they are showing the speed for such a short period of time. I could do that too and show 15-20 knots of speed, at very close angles to the wind, in less wind than you'd think possible.

To cherry pick milliseconds of good speeds, to put on video, is a big peeve of mine. It's immensely deceiving. Show me a minute or two focused on your instrumentation, and include SOG and audio, and I'll believe it's true. Have you done that on this thread yet? I'll confess to skipping much of the thread, and I even put you on ignore for a while; but please let me know which post shows a video of your boat doing what you say it can do.

For goodness sakes, we all love our boats. Let me be the first one to say: I DO NOT OWN THE FASTEST CATAMARAN ON CF.

Having built: a fairly light (8 tonne, half load), reasonably powered (Bruce #1.33 with 100% jib), fairly skinny hulled ( 11.8:1), 15m long hulls with 6m bridgedeck... I can do a steady 18 knots in 30 knots of wind, if I want to push the boat. Normally I'd have two or three reefs in by then, and be sailing at about 15kn, off the wind. With a big spinnaker, and pushing the envelope... who knows?

Upwind at 35 AWA; 10kn boatspeed in 20kn TWS... we can do that with two reefs in the main, and a full jib, if we focus on trim, and the waves are small.

I love our boat, and I'm beginning to think it's a fairly fast one; but enough's known about catamaran design to say my boat's not going to out point, or out sail, a Schionning waterline 1480, or Oram 44C, and the like.

Facts are facts. Perhaps you should change your focus to enjoying your boat, however it sails. If she's really fast, and you're passing everyone in sight, then the story will tell itself.

Cheers, and stay well.
Paul.

Regarding speed, there is current that can explain the difference. Plenty of it around Spain I hear. I cannot say it is true but from my experience so far boat speed could well be real especially as boat was on delivery and not loaded. If what you say was true than boat speed in 40 apparent is 7.5 kn which is definitely less than what boat can do.

I am optimizing my boat for speeds best I can because I enjoy it. Just because is boxy lagoon will not make it automatically into floating condo like 90 % of others. Of course before I push, study the structure to se where the stresses occur so I can judge when should I stop. Heavy built Lagoons have edge in strong weather and especially seastate because of weight once enough wind, including upwind against any lightweight boat. I am sorry if that irritates you but that how it is. Just look objectively at ARC results to see that tendency.

We will never race but sure will push boat to 15 kn when i feel ready and in right seastate.

peace.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

L400 RR Light



Yes, I've been patiently following this boat too, but now it seems like it's more than past time to see this performance against other boats please, even in a cruising sense.

And in addition, instead of just small isolated snapshots, passage times normally show up a fast (or slow) boat (or sailor) in a pretty obvious way.

Just look at ARC results, plenty of evidence there. Just because is mostly downwind it is relevant, do not fall for excuse tht it doesnt matter cited by lightweight boat owners.

Here is example for you

Lagoon 52 Greatcircle, 2 years ago i think, similar build to other lagoons, was 20% slower than Outremer 60 although there was factory guy on O60 that made sure boat sails at best speeds and he was really trying. there is video about it. Waterline difference is responsible for 8% of difference. Outremer was in fair comparision ~ 12 % faster than fat L 52. that looks quite small looking at fluidness of boats and space sacrifice but the reason is that lagoons have edge in heavy weather.

The other is Django that showed with his L380 how well can this type of boat perform. You can look up his shocking win as well.

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Regarding speed, there is current that can explain the difference. Plenty of it around Spain I hear. I cannot say it is true but from my experience so far boat speed could well be real especially as boat was on delivery and not loaded. If what you say was true than boat speed in 40 apparent is 7.5 kn which is definitely less than what boat can do.

I am optimizing my boat for speeds best I can because I enjoy it. Just because is boxy lagoon will not make it automatically into floating condo like 90 % of others. Of course before I push, study the structure to se where the stresses occur so I can judge when should I stop. Heavy built Lagoons have edge in strong weather and especially seastate because of weight once enough wind, including upwind against any lightweight boat. I am sorry if that irritates you but that how it is. Just look objectively at ARC results to see that tendency.

We will never race but sure will push boat to 15 kn when i feel ready and in right seastate.

peace.

Those seas didn't look at all like they were large enough to represent 2.5 knots against 30 knots of wind. I've been in the Gulf Stream in those conditions, (actually 38 knots) on one of my old boats, and the seas were just below the height of my spreaders. It's not something easily forgotten.

I'm glad you're optimizing your boat for speed; speed is fun, no doubt. And you should do whatever you enjoy with your boat. However, ALL boat speed records (mono or multihull) are set with high aspect keels. Surely you have to agree there's a reason for this? Now they use foils, but before foils were high aspect keels and daggerboards.

In any case, I've expressed my point, and you disagree. Fortunately, we can agree to disagree. Enjoy your boat.

Cheers.
Paul.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Just look at ARC results, plenty of evidence there

I meant your specific boat - and it's performance against other boats please, even in a cruising sense. There is normally plenty of opportunity to line up against other boats when out for a normal sail.

Because as we know, not all Lagoons are L400 RR Light models like yours



PS: although there is some joking regarding my L400 RR Light suggestion, on the other hand from what you have said it is also not totally incorrect.

You state you keep the boat light, it has a larger square top mainsail, etc.

And in the past I have done these types of modifications to other boats that may have 'potential' too, so I understand that 'optimisation' and 'sailing well' can make a big difference.

I'm just suggesting that you show us. For example a video of you sailing upwind and out pointing / out sailing other boats around you would answer a lot of questions from people here

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Just look at ARC results, plenty of evidence there. Just because is mostly downwind it is relevant, do not fall for excuse tht it doesnt matter cited by lightweight boat owners.



Here is example for you



Lagoon 52 Greatcircle, 2 years ago i think, similar build to other lagoons, was 20% slower than Outremer 60 although there was factory guy on O60 that made sure boat sails at best speeds and he was really trying. there is video about it. Waterline difference is responsible for 8% of difference. Outremer was in fair comparision ~ 12 % faster than fat L 52. that looks quite small looking at fluidness of boats and space sacrifice but the reason is that lagoons have edge in heavy weather.



The other is Django that showed with his L380 how well can this type of boat perform. You can look up his shocking win as well.

The people who own (owned?) the L52 Great Circle are now taking possession of an Outremer 55 (which I consider a bloated whale of a boat - almost 40% heavier than our older design 55) and have said they were tired of the poor performance of their Lagoon.

Why are you saying that a Lagoon does better than a lighter boat in heavy air? Based on what?

Our performance boat sails well in all directions in any weather (well, up to 45 TWS that we’ve personally experienced). We often see Lagoons and similar motoring in light, medium and heavy air - there must be a reason for that.

And finally, again, the ARC is a silly way to compare boats performance. DDW, motoring allowed, and many boats stacking their odds. Take passage averages from a variety of boats for all over the world and you quickly see that performance cruising cats are faster on average. You may be an outlier, but that doesn’t change physics, hydro dynamics and aero dynamics.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by fxykty

The people who own (owned?) the L52 Great Circle are now taking possession of an Outremer 55 (which I consider a bloated whale of a boat - almost 40% heavier than our older design 55) and have said they were tired of the poor performance of their Lagoon.

Why are you saying that a Lagoon does better than a lighter boat in heavy air? Based on what?

Our performance boat sails well in all directions in any weather (well, up to 45 TWS that we’ve personally experienced). We often see Lagoons and similar motoring in light, medium and heavy air - there must be a reason for that.

And finally, again, the ARC is a silly way to compare boats performance. DDW, motoring allowed, and many boats stacking their odds. Take passage averages from a variety of boats for all over the world and you quickly see that performance cruising cats are faster on average. You may be an outlier, but that doesn’t change physics, hydro dynamics and aero dynamics.

Arc is not silly way to compare, tired of that excuse from light boat owners. Nearly everyone looking for weather windows with wind behind beam. As weather predictions are fairly accurate for 5 days, you get that 80 % of time therefore is by far the most important point of sail. And in these condition boats like lagoons shine in comfort and decent speed.

Have you not read my numbers ? Outremer 60 was 20 % faster from that 52 ft lagoon cat. I would expect difference should be at least double that. Even more dramatic relationships have been achieved by Django with his L380, with well thought out sail plans. This was ocean sailing and Lagoons have proven to behave well in open sea conditions. Maybe not better performance/comfort but sure cant deny strengths in such conditions.

Yes, i know there is plenty of lagoons and other boats that are turned into luxurious apartments on water. Everyone has different agendas. The other thing about lagoons is that many first time owners own them so they are inexperienced and not willing to improve. Cherry picking such lagoons seem to be favourite among sailing community.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

I meant your specific boat - and it's performance against other boats please, even in a cruising sense. There is normally plenty of opportunity to line up against other boats when out for a normal sail.

Because as we know, not all Lagoons are L400 RR Light models like yours



PS: although there is some joking regarding my L400 RR Light suggestion, on the other hand from what you have said it is also not totally incorrect.

You state you keep the boat light, it has a larger square top mainsail, etc.

And in the past I have done these types of modifications to other boats that may have 'potential' too, so I understand that 'optimisation' and 'sailing well' can make a big difference.

I'm just suggesting that you show us. For example a video of you sailing upwind and out pointing / out sailing other boats around you would answer a lot of questions from people here

currently we sit in a river with hopelessly fouled bottom. I see what you mean but I would be happy to 'compete' on ocean passage where speed is paramount. Like AUS to NC or something like that. That is where all boats carry meaningful weight and no tricks.

First time we have done it in 2018 totally inexperienced and deep reefed even in sub 15 kn conditions, we still managed to come in first 1/2 of boats, maybe even 1/3 cant remember. It was really enjoyable. If we align for something like that be my guest, I will do my best and I will be well prepared.

Competing around island or on beer cans race or similar, forget it. Never.

You misunderstand my postings here. I do not do it to boost, but want to improve boat performance and looking for ideas.

[arsenelupiga]

AUS to New Cal would be really great race and then back. Wonder why someone has not done it already.

For crew/wife reward get suckling pig at Ilot Maitre !!!

Should be real fun.

And the track is really challenging and beautiful.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

AUS to New Cal would be really great race and then back. Wonder why someone has not done it already.

For crew/wife reward get suckling pig at Ilot Maitre !!!

Should be real fun.

And the track is really challenging and beautiful.

When boarders open you can join one of the Down Under Rallies and sail in a group of boats. Not sure about the size of the group, but last time the Island Cruising Association held their rally from NZ to Tonga/Fiji/Vanuatu/New Caledonia there were over 30 boas participating.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by fxykty

When boarders open you can join one of the Down Under Rallies and sail in a group of boats. Not sure about the size of the group, but last time the Island Cruising Association held their rally from NZ to Tonga/Fiji/Vanuatu/New Caledonia there were over 30 boas participating.

To all doubters out there :

We will go on next one of these rallies in NC, corona willing. Please join and we will settle all the differences ! That is the only place I can convince my wife to go, because of course suckling pig as reward.

[malbert73]

Arsenelupiga- I for one am not doubting that your L400 is faster than most think upwind. That’s awesome and I am sure you sail the heck out of it.
But you erode faith when you post snippets of improbable claims like “6.35 Kts upwind VMG” or suggesting your boat is faster than a daggerboard narrow hull cat

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Arsenelupiga- I for one am not doubting that your L400 is faster than most think upwind. That’s awesome and I am sure you sail the heck out of it.
But you erode faith when you post snippets of improbable claims like “6.35 Kts upwind VMG” or suggesting your boat is faster than a daggerboard narrow hull cat

hope Django will not mind reposting his shot. But his Lagoon 380 that has increased carbon sails can do this

in TWS 16 kn (8.1 TWS on pic is m/s) his boat does 5.4 kn VMG. This is 22 kn apparent. And is it so impossible that slightly bigger boat with same design principles but standard sails cant do 6.35 kn in 27kn apparent with full sails? As i mentioned, would not push boat that hard. And not comparing to daggerboard - sure most conditions they are superior, but in strong winds and flat water, well maybe there .. but dont care.

See pic of his sail numbers and then my excel analysis.