Cruising cat - sub 90 degrees tack upwind

[smj]

Nice video and I believe it’s on topic.

https://youtu.be/Ohs-3nPzDK8

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by smj

Nice video and I believe it’s on topic.

https://youtu.be/Ohs-3nPzDK8

Nice. Thanks for sharing.

Paul.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by smj

Nice video and I believe it’s on topic.

https://youtu.be/Ohs-3nPzDK8

Very nice and most balanced reporting i have seen so far. Upwind performance of outremer 6-8 kn VMG compared to 3 KN seem bit stretched both ways, but wait and see. We have average actual upwind performance slightly above 3 kn, presume 52 should be bit better.

I expect (expensive) weight fight will be ongoing.

[44'cruisingcat]

Reducing tacking angle is simple. Just go slower. As long as it's not to the point of leeway getting too big.

Check on a VMG calculator. In the same windspeed, same AWA, reducing boatspeed reduces TWA.

Put simply, the slower you go, the less the difference between TWA and AWA.

As long as your boat can point as high as about 35 apparent, getting 90degree tacks (if it's that important to you) is just a matter of sailing slow enough.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Reducing tacking angle is simple. Just go slower. As long as it's not to the point of leeway getting too big.

Check on a VMG calculator. In the same windspeed, same AWA, reducing boatspeed reduces TWA.

Put simply, the slower you go, the less the difference between TWA and AWA.

As long as your boat can point as high as about 35 apparent, getting 90degree tacks (if it's that important to you) is just a matter of sailing slow enough.

if you too slow there is a drag. IF 10 deg drag, you need to point 25. Especially draggeboards boats that work better at higher speeds. Keels are different. Remember seawind 1250 chasing me upwind at larger angle. Still beginners back then, we were doing 38 app and he was left behind. So drag of keel boats at slower speeds is less. Speed at all costs for keel boats may be wrong receipe. At 6 kn and 30 app we seem to be doing very little leeway.

[GRIT]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

if you too slow there is a drag. IF 10 deg drag, you need to point 25. Especially draggeboards boats that work better at higher speeds. Keels are different. Remember seawind 1250 chasing me upwind at larger angle. Still beginners back then, we were doing 38 app and he was left behind. So drag of keel boats at slower speeds is less. Speed at all costs for keel boats may be wrong receipe. At 6 kn and 30 app we seem to be doing very little leeway.

I've noticed you call Daggerboard boats, Draggerboard boats. I've noticed this before too. Is this a derogatory term, slung by lagoon owners, about Daggerboard style boats?

Seriously curious.

Cheers.
Paul.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by GRIT

I've noticed you call Daggerboard boats, Draggerboard boats. I've noticed this before too. Is this a derogatory term, slung by lagoon owners, about Daggerboard style boats?

Seriously curious.

Cheers.
Paul.

no, nothing bad. my view is that there are boats suited for keels, and ones suited for daggerboards. Keel ones have wider hulls more windage. Yous is clearly in other category where hulls are thinner and boat more aerodynamic.

I may get one like yours in the future.

Every design had advantages and disadvantages.

Point i am trying to make is use keels advantages instead of following suburbian myths of the past and doing 50 app which cannot produce as high VMG when one sails at 35 app and in some congitions even 27. Of course sea conditions dependant.

[GRIT]

I was curious, as you'd used that term before now.

Horses for courses. I'm not sensitive, but was genuinely curious if there was some sort of animosity towards Daggerboard style boats. I know people use Condomaran, as a derogatory term, though I see the attraction, and don't quite understand the animosity towards comfortable boats.

It used to be that folks disliked light monohulls, and called them "unseaworthy" for "blue water", and that only heavy full keeled monohulls were "blue water" worthy. Now that's pretty much reversed, at the altar of speed. I've owned light, and heavy, and liked them both, for different reasons.

I'm a firm believer that "condomarans" are a perfectly good compromise between speed and comfort; though I lean a little more towards speed, for my own reasons.

I could be just as happy with more room, and a little less speed, so long as it was built with quality in mind.

Cheers.
Paul.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by GRIT

I was curious, as you'd used that term before now.

Horses for courses. I'm not sensitive, but was genuinely curious if there was some sort of animosity towards Daggerboard style boats. I know people use Condomaran, as a derogatory term, though I see the attraction, and don't quite understand the animosity towards comfortable boats.

It used to be that folks disliked light monohulls, and called them "unseaworthy" for "blue water", and that only heavy full keeled monohulls were "blue water" worthy. Now that's pretty much reversed, at the altar of speed. I've owned light, and heavy, and liked them both, for different reasons.

I'm a firm believer that "condomarans" are a perfectly good compromise between speed and comfort; though I lean a little more towards speed, for my own reasons.

I could be just as happy with more room, and a little less speed, so long as it was built with quality in mind.

Cheers.
Paul.

good approach. some people seem to get bit owner biased. probably me included sometimes. And sometimes I have some fun debunking suburbia legends.

lagoon FB group is all about cleaning chemicals, light bulb replacement, how to stash more stuff on board. And very little about performance. Looks like i am one of very few lagooners that is interested in that part. Reason is because i can be, as my wife has not requested too much stuff on board, before boat is allowed to leave marina. Some are not that lucky. So i am able to make or boat fun to sail.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

good approach. some people seem to get bit owner biased. probably me included sometimes. And sometimes I have some fun debunking suburbia legends.



lagoon FB group is all about cleaning chemicals, light bulb replacement, how to stash more stuff on board. And very little about performance. Looks like i am one of very few lagooners that is interested in that part. Reason is because i can be, as my wife has not requested too much stuff on board, before boat is allowed to leave marina. Some are not that lucky. So i am able to make or boat fun to sail.

Nailed it: FUN TO SAIL!!!

That’s what it’s all about; not about the tool, but the user of the tool.

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Reducing tacking angle is simple. Just go slower. As long as it's not to the point of leeway getting too big.

Check on a VMG calculator. In the same windspeed, same AWA, reducing boatspeed reduces TWA.

Put simply, the slower you go, the less the difference between TWA and AWA.

As long as your boat can point as high as about 35 apparent, getting 90degree tacks (if it's that important to you) is just a matter of sailing slow enough.

But it reduces VMG. To increase VMG you need to increase the angle between AWA and TWA.

[Factor]

The laws of physics have finally been bent.

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

But it reduces VMG. To increase VMG you need to increase the angle between AWA and TWA.

Originally Posted by Factor

The laws of physics have finally been bent.

I should clarify...

While maintaining the same optimal AWA.

There is a limit to this where you will start loosing VMG but if 30° is your optimal AWA for the conditions you probably can't reach the spread of angles where you start loosing VMG, even in the G Force. But if you bear away on AWA to 35° you will be able to exceed this point so there is a limit to my statement but when your trying it holds true. Because at 35AWA you can't make the same potential VMG as you can at 30-34°.

AC boats that can do 18° AWA therefore have a max VMG around 53° ish TWA and they are capable of exceeding 53° but if they do they are loosing VMG so tacking angles are around 110° to 115° depending on stability of wind, windage and ability to maintain 53° and 18°.

[Dave_S]

If you can sail at 30° apparent at 70% true wind speed there is no speed (real or imaginary) you can sail at 32° apparent that can get you upwind as fast.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

I should clarify...

While maintaining the same optimal AWA.

There is a limit to this where you will start loosing VMG but if 30° is your optimal AWA for the conditions you probably can't reach the spread of angles where you start loosing VMG, even in the G Force. But if you bear away on AWA to 35° you will be able to exceed this point so there is a limit to my statement but when your trying it holds true. Because at 35AWA you can't make the same potential VMG as you can at 30-34°.

AC boats that can do 18° AWA therefore have a max VMG around 53° ish TWA and they are capable of exceeding 53° but if they do they are loosing VMG so tacking angles are around 110° to 115° depending on stability of wind, windage and ability to maintain 53° and 18°.

at 35 app in 10 kn of wind, max possible VMG is 3.66 kn at 7.2 kn boat speed, assuming no leeway.

Our L 400 does in 10 kn wind with main and jib 4.0 kn at 31 app, which is 2.93 kn vmg. This is only 20 % less than best VMG at 35 app. At 35 our boat would have to go 4.6kn to achieve same but i dont think we can increase .6 kn with 4 degrees more.