Cruising Foresails

[Snowgoose35]

I have a Prout Quasar 50

Next year we are heading off on a 5 year circumnavigation and I have the boat mostly ready to go (lots of refurbishment and changes based on our last 5 year cruise though that was only the Atlantic Coast of Europe and the Med)

One of the things i have done is to ditch the furling headsail and go back to hank on - too many time the less than a year old top of the range Harken furling let me down and jammed up.

I now have the 110% jib recut for hanks and with a single deep reef about 2m (6 feet) up from the foot. Its about 620 sq foot

I also have a fully battened laminate light air jib (no reefs - good up to about 12 knots)

Previously first reef on the furling jib went in at 18-20kn and second at 25 ish

So I now feel I can run well in light airs on the laminate, change to the normal jib above that and drop in the big reef when it gets to 18 kn or so and stick with that until I've got 2 reefs in the main

After that I can drop the jib completely and use the heavy weather stay sail which is 125 sq foot and on a Holt fuller so can run down to a tiny storm sail if needed.

So, never having used hank ons before I have no experience of the No2 job, No3 jib idea. Do those with experience of this stuff think I need a second smaller jib or will the deep reef in the No1 jib cover all eventualities when combined with swapping to the stay sail for heavy weather ?

Thanks

[Factor]

My only comment is to include a downhaul in your running rigging if using handed on sails

[Jim Cate]

My own experience with reefing foresails is that dealing with the bunt, especially with a deep reef, is problematic. Further, it isn't so easy to do the reefing on a pitching foredeck.

I gave up on them long ago, went to a Reef-Rite K-Z foil system (no longer available, I fear) which made sail changes easier, and thence to roller furling/reefing systems. For our usage (long term couple cruising) the advantages of the furler have outweighed the occasional issues with maintenance or failure. YMMV.

Jim

PS You might look at Reef-Rite's current offerings. Their "downloader" setup on their very beefy furlers allows one to do safer sail changes on a furler at sea, somewhat similar to the magazine system in the older KZ foil that we used. The furlers are also nearly bullet proof... far stronger than other systems on the market... but also heavier and pretty dear. We really liked the one we had on our previous boat, but it was lost in a dismasting episode.

[ChrisJHC]

How many crew do you have?
Changing headsails at 3am on a dark, stormy night can be difficult with a small crew.
We typically have one at the bow, one at the mast and at least one in the cockpit when changing.

[Paul L]

Properly installed, modern headsail furlers are extremely reliable. I have idea of ypur age, but I just can't see a Mom and Pop crewed cruising boat going back to hanked on sails. Seems like asking to make cruising harder, not simpler.

[double u]

slab reefing much smaller headsails than yours: most of the time I ended up with a "sausage" of sailcloth at the clew, that waved around annoyingly in the wind. Wasn't so easy to roll up the bunt of the sail correctly & tie the reefpoints. What I read there can be zippers sewn into the sail that hold the bunt.
(after 3 rtw with hank on sails & 1/3 with a Selden furler I can say: a godsend!)

[Tupaia]

Find someone with hank ons that will take you out sailing. Better to know now than when you set sail on your adventure.
Prouts typically have very large headsails maybe the furler was under sized or just worn out, or was there a problem with the furling line leads?

[double u]

the problem with the proportionately very large foresails: close-hauled any foresail furled further than say 30% is going to perform quite poorly (with wind aft of the beam this matters less & less so as one bears away). A significant reduction of overall sail area on a mast-aft-rig will have the foresail furled 50% or more...
As long as the going is downwind/broad reaching this is very comfortable, as furling a foresail is the easiest sail-reduction, but upwind performance in strong winds will be poor. On some boats there are two roller-furlers pretty close to each other, one with a big & one with a smaller headsail. Tacking/jibing the forward one will entail rolling up & unrolling on the other side though. No perfect solution...

[Snowgoose35]

I'm sure many prefer roller furling but having had a new, $7000 Harken system which on several occasions in heavy winds simply refused to furl, and spoken to a rigger I've known for many years who tells me all brands are crap and unreliable I chose to go to hanks - convenience is very secondary to not being able to get 600 feet of sail away in a blow.

I appreciate others feel the need to tell me I'm wrong but I am happy with the choice and find it relatively simple and as the boat is 1000 sq feet I've not found any issues working on the pitching fore deck so far.

What I was asking was if those who have used these sails in a wider range of conditions than I have managed to in a year of test sails would recommend a number two jig be bought given the set up I have or is it just likely to remain unused ?

[double u]

The fact that practically all long-distance cruisers & all charter boats have roller furler foresails speaks against "all brands are crap and unreliable". Why not have a reasonably sized Genoa on a furler & a Solent jib on a removable forestay say 30cm behind the furler? Having a bar-tight forestay helps the furler - maybe not so easy to achieve on the cat.
I have changed foresails, much smaller than yours, countless times, cat & mono, on windy & wet nights too - on our last Tahiti trip the furler was much appreciated, much.
Of course a furler can be ruined by wrong handling, but so can pretty much anything on the boat.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by double u

The fact that practically all long-distance cruisers & all charter boats have roller furler foresails speaks against "all brands are crap and unreliable". Why not have a reasonably sized Genoa on a furler & a Solent jib on a removable forestay say 30cm behind the furler? Having a bar-tight forestay helps the furler - maybe not so easy to achieve on the cat.
I have changed foresails, much smaller than yours, countless times, cat & mono, on windy & wet nights too - on our last Tahiti trip the furler was much appreciated, much.
Of course a furler can be ruined by wrong handling, but so can pretty much anything on the boat.

Use on charter vessels is not a recommendation beyond their use on charter vessels. Charter boats are a very specialized use case. Among other things users tend to be relatively inexperienced and professional repair is available on a regular basis.

[double u]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Use on charter vessels is not a recommendation beyond their use on charter vessels. Charter boats are a very specialized use case. Among other things users tend to be relatively inexperienced and professional repair is available on a regular basis.

the use on charter boats is a big recommendation: in my 3 years as a basemanager I saw only two damaged foresail-furlers despite crews of breathtaking incompetence & degree of inebriation. The key is to have a gear a little oversized & for your application & - more forestay sag than a monohull - one with a round or nearly so foil.
btw: broad reaching in stronger winds under genoa alone we found the easy rolling in & out as the wind strength varies very useful. No soul searching after the third change, if one should really change up again (three in the morning & close hauled, so soaked on foredeck). Just like a gas-pedal, throttle up or ease off.
Try it out before you commit! (& remember: YOU will have to get out of bed to change down, you cannot very well expect the lady to do it on her own...)

[fxykty]

About a year and 4,000 miles ago we transitioned from a roller furler jib that had 3 reef positions according to our reefing plan (75%, 50% and 20%) to a furling but not reefed jib and installed an inner forestay that we use with a staysail (64%) and a storm jib (18%). The two inner forestay sails are also furling and not reefed. Changing between the sails is a bit of a pain, but for us the sail shape and efficiency gains more than make up for the inconvenience. Our sail break points are 27 knots and 37 knots apparent.

Based on others comments of the reefing bunt issues of a slab-reefed jib I would recommend a #2 jib - as long as the point where you transition from your #1 jib to the #2 is fairly low down on wind strength, say under 20 knots apparent, so that the sails aren’t flogging too much during the drop and hoist manoeuvre. Then you can carry the #2 sail until the conditions strengthen enough to go for the furling staysail on the inner forestay.

On a downwind leg you could run wing and wing with the #1 and #2 sails hanked onto the forestay together - I think that should work if the respective hanks are offset from each other.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by Snowgoose35

I'm sure many prefer roller furling but having had a new, $7000 Harken system which on several occasions in heavy winds simply refused to furl, and spoken to a rigger I've known for many years who tells me all brands are crap and unreliable I chose to go to hanks - convenience is very secondary to not being able to get 600 feet of sail away in a blow.

I appreciate others feel the need to tell me I'm wrong but I am happy with the choice and find it relatively simple and as the boat is 1000 sq feet I've not found any issues working on the pitching fore deck so far.

What I was asking was if those who have used these sails in a wider range of conditions than I have managed to in a year of test sails would recommend a number two jig be bought given the set up I have or is it just likely to remain unused ?

I have never and will never own a furler--they are the Devil's work. So, as someone with much experience offshore with hank-on sails, I'd say it's wise to have multiple jibs. And on a catamaran which has huge amounts of deck space to work on, changing a jib should be lots easier than on a monohull.
As someone mentioned above, a downhaul is your friend, and if you set yourself up correctly, you can leave your primary jib hanked on and tied down while you hank your secondary above it, as long as you design it with a long enough tack pennant to clear.

[catsketcher]

A comment I would make about furlers is that they often get the short end of the stick.

My point is that I never, ever, winch the furler in. Just never. I always haul it in by hand (38 ft cat with 6 mm furling line). I consider furling the headsail the same way I take down a kite, head downwind with the genny in the mains lee and going fast to reduce apparent.

I see heaps of sailors struggling to furl their gennys when bashing to windward. The genny gets thrashed as the crew wind it in with the winch, sail destroying itself whilst they struggle for minutes. But if they do a quick bear away and furl immediately, they can have the sail away in 15 seconds and be back on the wind in no time. Both the furler and the genny all nice and well put away, and no fuss or shredded furler or genny.

Use the apparent to help you on any cruiser. I would hate to thrash my boat by not doing so, my boat would not like me either. She is a very nice boat and I would hate to abuse her.

As for furlers, I have the Code zero on a rope luff continuous furler, the 105% percent genny on a normal furler, the storm jib on hanked on a stay and I would like to get a staysail and use soft hanks to attach it to a Dux removable forestay. But I would never recommend getting rid of the furler for the genny you will use 90% of the time.

When I launched my cat I told everyone loudly how awful furlers were and how I would never have one. The sailmaker told me I was mad but I remained resolute. Then after only 4 days trips north I started scanning the marina noticeboards for furlers - it was such a pain to have to bag the genny every time we wanted to anchor. I had to spend 10-15 minutes every time we stopped sailing putting the genny in its bag on the forestay. You couldn;t leave it on exposed deck as the chain would dirty it with spatter, It was nice stiff cloth and took ages for me to flake it and bundle it in the bag and so my wife would putter around the anchorage whilst I mucked around with a recalcitrant genny, getting cross for no reason. We bought a cheap secondhand furler and it has lasted 20 years fine. A crucial bit of kit, especially for a family cruiser for the regular headsail. Go hanked for the staysail and storm jib fine, but not furling the genny was a huge pain for us and I would never want to go back again.