Daggerboard catamarans

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by rom

I am especially intrigued now by outremer tacking 110 vs. GB tacking 90, while both were "probably" at the same AWA. ?

Who says this ?

GB 62 (Zenyetta) was doing 11 kts in 25 degrees AWA at 20 kts of true wind and 14-15 kts as soon as you bear away couple of degrees. She could easily tack to 60-65 degrees. Outremer 51 is tacking to 80-90 degrees and Catana 47 C, 5 to 10 degrees more.
Orana, Helia , L450 etc are tacking to 100-110 degrees.

Cheers

Yeloya

[rom]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Who says this ?

GB 62 (Zenyetta) was doing 11 kts in 25 degrees AWA at 20 kts of true wind and 14-15 kts as soon as you bear away couple of degrees. She could easily tack to 60-65 degrees. Outremer 51 is tacking to 80-90 degrees and Catana 47 C, 5 to 10 degrees more.
Orana, Helia , L450 etc are tacking to 100-110 degrees.

Cheers

Yeloya

yes, I realize that was coming from a comment; not from ROAM.

From ROAM:
"The Outremer 5X vs a Gunboat 62 in the RORC 600 was interesting. The gunboat with its blade non overlapping jib made nearly 90° degree tacks, but the Outremer ended up winning by making 110°."

Comment:
"This kind of shows how the lighter faster boat ends up sailing a lower TWA but with a better VMG due to it's higher speed and shows why the Outremer beat the Gunboat as although they were sailing lower their VMG was obviously better. I suspect they probably were sailing similiar AWA's."

Edit: as for tacking 100-110° with a stock L450 in real life conditions I would like to see a trace...

[Stumble]

In the right conditions, with the right sails I would believe it. But I would consider 100 on a L450 to be pretty much the best you will ever see.

Part of the issue frankly is that fast cats generate so much aparent wind that while they sail very tight AWA they also sail pretty poor TWA. My A-Cat may sail at 20 degrees AWA or less, but doing 10kn upwind in 6kn true means my tacking angles are really wide.


As for race results.... ya, I don't trust any rating results in the Carribean. I am convinced they litterly throw darts at a wall. The RORC I think wasthe regatta where Paradox (retuned Orma 60) was owed time by a Corsair 31C.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by rom

Holy cow 30° ! I just read the other link about ROAM, very interesting ! I am especially intrigued now by outremer tacking 110 vs. GB tacking 90, while both were "probably" at the same AWA. I believe you have an AC42 AP right ? First time I hear about VMG optimizer. Could it decide to go outremer like or GB like while keeping the AWA (and thus sail trim which is where my interest is) you've set ?

Not really sure I understand the question?

Anyway, with the VMG optimiser on, it basically tracks up and down until it finds the highest VMG to windward. If you leave it turned on it does this every time you tack, which is a pain, so I usually don't.

Obviously you need to have the sails trimmed for upwind sailing first.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by rom

Edit: as for tacking 100-110° with a stock L450 in real life conditions I would like to see a trace...

depends on sea conditions and wind strength. We managed 27 deg app in 25 kn true and 8 kn with full sail and some chop. And left behind all monos. Trimming and good ap is the key.

[rom]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

depends on sea conditions and wind strength. We managed 27 deg app in 25 kn true and 8 kn with full sail and some chop. And left behind all monos. Trimming and good ap is the key.

I am too lazy to do the math right now but I believe there is a mistake, I do not think you sailed upwind in 30+ AWS full sail...
As for 27 AWA in a L400 ?! I would immediatley recalibrate the anemometer !

[Factor]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

depends on sea conditions and wind strength. We managed 27 deg app in 25 kn true and 8 kn with full sail and some chop. And left behind all monos. Trimming and good ap is the key.

27 apparent in 25 true is way more than 30 knots apparent, with full sail you must have been seriously overpowered.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by rom

I am too lazy to do the math right now but I believe there is a mistake, I do not think you sailed upwind in 30+ AWS full sail...
As for 27 AWA in a L400 ?! I would immediatley recalibrate the anemometer !

very good points. However, it is true, have already checked. My instruments actually show more wind than actually is. CP showing tacking below 90 deg over ground in this case. Yes, you can go upwind with all sails in low 30 kn app in L 400, without stressing rig & sail, extra wind is countered by lowering wind angle if sea state allows. Ideally hand steering or ap on higher sensitivity setting.

I am not really interested to get max out of upwind in strong winds, but is essential skill to have when caught out with too much sail on. Normally reef in around 22 kn app upwind to keep everything relaxed.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Factor

27 apparent in 25 true is way more than 30 knots apparent, with full sail you must have been seriously overpowered.

i dont think was overpowered. checked tensions in mast spreaders furler and sails and looked fine. No vibrations either. Seas was less than 1m though. Would not try this in more seas.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

depends on sea conditions and wind strength. We managed 27 deg app in 25 kn true and 8 kn with full sail and some chop. And left behind all monos. Trimming and good ap is the key.

You'd be tacking through about 72 degrees. AWS about 32 kts, VMG better than 6 1/2 kts.

[44'cruisingcat]

Our best to windward, and it was in flat water, was 11kts at 30 apparent, in 21 - 23 kts true.

2 reefs and about 2/3 jib.

[Seaslug Caravan]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Our best to windward, and it was in flat water, was 11kts at 30 apparent, in 21 - 23 kts true.

2 reefs and about 2/3 jib.

Data?? points are great. Thanx Mr "C"

A quick check of a true/apparent calculator reveals.....

With approx 30 knots of apparent wind at 45 , all the drag of the reefed section of the spar, the great lump of rolled up sail for a leading edge of the headsail and the considerable drag of a VERY high profile boat, you would have been making a MINIMUM of 5 degrees of leeway per tack (I'm being nice) , so your tacks would have been through at least 100 degrees over the ground.

So in the same conditions in unprotected water you too would have been in the 4.5 knot vmg territory

Then again you did say your dagger produces neg .5 knots of drag while motoring at 8 , ie zero AoA ,so maybe its worse.

Discuss.

[44'cruisingcat]

LOL. Post guesses as facts. May as well, since you have no personal experience to go by.

You should to get a ride on someone's boat one day. The real thing is far more fun than sitting in front of a computer.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

Data?? points are great. Thanx Mr "C"

A quick check of a true/apparent calculator reveals.....

With approx 30 knots of apparent wind at 45 , all the drag of the reefed section of the spar, the great lump of rolled up sail for a leading edge of the headsail and the considerable drag of a VERY high profile boat, you would have been making a MINIMUM of 5 degrees of leeway per tack (I'm being nice) , so your tacks would have been through at least 100 degrees over the ground.

So in the same conditions in unprotected water you too would have been in the 4.5 knot vmg territory

Then again you did say your dagger produces neg .5 knots of drag while motoring at 8 , ie zero AoA ,so maybe its worse.

Discuss.

So remind me how do we set up the ignore option on CF??? Ive never seen the need to do this before but after a few posts from this slug im ready to make him the first one

Seriously what a waste of 2 minutes of my life

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Barra

So remind me how do we set up the ignore option on CF??? Ive never seen the need to do this before but after a few posts from this slug im ready to make him the first one

Seriously what a waste of 2 minutes of my life

Click on the name of the user that you want to ignore, & a sub-menu will drop down. With one of the options being to add said user to your ignore users list. Pick that one, & it's self explanitory from there.