Double forestays on a catamaran schooner/ketch

[PanuV]

A beginner here...

Do people have double forestays (solent, cutter, side by side) on two-masted catamarans? With what kind of arrangements? Considering the foremast being next to a trampoline or other non-solid part of the deck.

I'm getting to crew on a cutter rigged boat (also a cat but with a mast much more aft than a schooner/ketch would, I suppose) and started to study running backstays. From there I wandered to read about solent rigs, cutter rigs etc. Before this I've only sailed sloops and a Wharram schooner. The idea of having a storm jib hanked on before you actually need one sounds good, as does cruising wing on wing, though I don't see myself sailing in trade winds in the near future.

When I was a kid, I sailed on a small catamaran with a double forestay side by side. Now I hear that this was a 70's thing and has been buried a long time ago. What's the reason? Uneven tension on the mast? Disturbing the airflow? It would be easier to attach forestays side by side than as a solent or a cutter stay (aft of the forestay), since there is just a trampoline between the bows on our boat.

A solent rig wouldn't work for us: we are tacking all the time and will not have a jib furler, so most of the time we could use only the inner stay (or remove it). Our headsail triangle is too small for a cutter rig and with a Wharram wingsail you couldn't have a cutter forestay anyway (nothing can be attached below the mast top because the mast is pocketed by the mainsail sleeve).

So I believe this leaves us with either with side by side forestays or a single forestay, right? And everybody says side by side doesn't work. Do I get this right?

[fxykty]

Side by side forestays were a thing, mainly for monohulls, before the days of ubiquitous furling jibs. Side by side doesn’t work with furling sails but is OK for hanked sails.

The double layer with single luff sail for wing and wing is more of a monohull thing, as cats don’t need to precisely balance their sails when wing and wing due to better tracking, and using a spinnaker is easier with the large and stable foredeck.

Regarding a storm jib, that’s always a challenge with a single forestay boat that has a furling headsail. The most common solution is an over-the-furl sleeved storm jib, though in practical terms when you want to hoist this with 30+ knots blowing I’m not sure how well the sleeve will slide over a furled jib. Of course, if you have hanked on sails, setting a storm jib is easy and one of the ways to have it permanently rigged is to have it hanked on below the lowest jib hank.

The alternative is to have a removable forestay that’s immediately behind the permanent forestay, made from wire or Dyneema. It attaches to the mast immediately below or beside the permanent forestay and attaches to the either the front beam or a a pair of stays attached to the hulls. When you want to use a storm jib lead the removable forestay forward and tension with a purchase at the tack. Then hoist the storm jib.

[PanuV]

Thanks, fxykty! A removable inner stay / solent stay sounds quite good.

We don't have a furling jib and probably won't have one. I may be wrong but a broken furler sounds like something we coud find difficult to fix by ourselves. We're trying to keep the boat as self-maintainable as possible. (My dad built the boat and he has a strong DIY ethos. I'm not as skilled as he is, but neither of has too much money...)

Therefore if a furler is the main reason to ditch the idea of side by side forestays, we might look into that anyway. But I wonder if there are other issues, too. Such as dividing the tension on the mast, though I guess the cutters and solent rigs need to deal with it, too.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by PanuV

A beginner here...

Do people have double forestays (solent, cutter, side by side) on two-masted catamarans?

Two masted catamarans are extremely rare. Usually a one off test bed type of thing or quirky owner wanting something unusual even if it doesn't make sense, so expecting a standard setup is unrealistic.

[PanuV]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Two masted catamarans are extremely rare. Usually a one off test bed type of thing or quirky owner wanting something unusual even if it doesn't make sense, so expecting a standard setup is unrealistic.

Many Tiki 31 owners seem to remove the mizzen mast. In bigger Wharrams there are always two masts (to have a low cetre of effort, I suppose).

[Redreuben]

Have a look at twin luff forestay foils, used on racing boats to enable headsail changes without going bareheaded.

[Factor]

And there is of course the Hitchhiker style of Forestay to each bow. Or John Hitch's final design of 3 headsails and no main.

[HankOnthewater]

I sailed a Tiki 34, 2 masts (schooner), but I don't think there is a good strong attachment point on a beam for a cutter stay
There is normally no sail track on the masts: the sails are wrapping around the mast, or with the use of parrels, there is no way one could attach a stay below the point where the gaff is hoisted on the mast. All assuming that the original sailplan of Wharram was followed.

[PanuV]

HankOnthewater,

that's correct: a cutter rig is not possible with the Wharram wingsail (the mast is wrapped in the mainsail sleeve).

If one wanted to have a second forestay aft of the first one (down from the mast top like in the solent rig), there should be some kind of a bridle to attach the bottom end of the stay.

Most likely will forget all double forestay ideas. With a jib furler the solent rig might make sense, but we sail currently on a lake and later from an archipelago, so there would be a lot of furling (on every tack/gybe).

Google also gave me this piece of advice:
"one with the sail attached/hanked will stretch a bit under this load and the 'bare' wire will 'react' and will take up most of the load, leaving the sail loaded wire at vastly reduced tension and with 'sagged off to leewards' luff entry shape." Therefore one should always loosen the bare forestay (or add tension with running backstays or something).

--
Factor,

wow, that rig is something else indeed.

[billgewater]

My boat was built in the 70’s and consequently I have twin forestays. They are separated laterally at the bow by about 15 cm. The headsails used piston hanks. Great arrangement, I think. Particularly sailing downwind with two yankees poled out. It does mean that all headsails need to be stored inside but they do last much longer than furled version- away from the sun. More mucking around when sailing but if cruising, that’s OK, as very long tacks are common.
Recently I replaced the SS forestays with dynema and it’s problematic, The dyneema does not like nylon or metal piston hanks so I will probably have to go back to SS forestays or try soft hanks.
Roller furling or even twin groove luffs can create problems and can be expensive.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by billgewater

My boat was built in the 70’s and consequently I have twin forestays. They are separated laterally at the bow by about 15 cm. The headsails used piston hanks. Great arrangement, I think. Particularly sailing downwind with two yankees poled out. It does mean that all headsails need to be stored inside but they do last much longer than furled version- away from the sun. More mucking around when sailing but if cruising, that’s OK, as very long tacks are common.
Recently I replaced the SS forestays with dynema and it’s problematic, The dyneema does not like nylon or metal piston hanks so I will probably have to go back to SS forestays or try soft hanks.
Roller furling or even twin groove luffs can create problems and can be expensive.

Curious about the hanks and dyneema, do they fray it?

[Redreuben]

Rob, I sailed on a F28 which was all dyneema rigged, yes the soft hanks are the way to go.