Dyneema rigging

[mikedefieslife]

Not quite yet ready for new rigging but was just pricing up dyneema replacements for my 1x19 8mm standing rigging.

Specificaly I was looking at Dynice Dux, Marlow M-RIG, Marlow D12 and MAX 78 and Liros D-pro.

Most say that you should never try to match the MBL, which for 8mm 1x19 316 steel is around 5000kg, but instead match the stretch and as a result, the rigging is likely to be larger but much stronger (I don't believe that is necessarily a good thing)

None of the companies list stretch characteristics, nor do I see it listed for 1x19 316 steel wire. So how to do you go about match them up?

In terms of MBL, the Dux 6mm is around 6000kg, but I have no idea on stretch.

My boat is a small catamaran with 10m aft-set mast. The current rigging is set to roughly 10% MBL.

[Benz]

Marlow D-12 will have creep issues: it is not pre-stretched. MAX 78 is more suitable, especially if you can pre-set the splices by loading them to about 40% of MBL. Dux is the same material as MAX 78; different manufacturer. Both of these will creep a little (not stretch, just ooze along over time) unless sized bigger than you probably want.
Marlow M-rig is designed for no creep. A little weaker than MAX or DUX, but designed to stay tight. Haven't used it yet, but it would be my choice.
Never heard of Liros D-pro.
As to larger rigging: there is more windage involved, but the weight savings are generally recognized to offset that.

[Shoalcove]

If you search the tech section at Colligo Marine website you will find comparative stretch figures for their dyneema and wire. Lots of info to be gleaned there I think.
Colligomarine.com
I have no affiliation with Colligo.

[Pete7]

Mike,

How about Acera at a 1/3rd of the price?

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ma-205162.html

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Mike,

How about Acera at a 1/3rd of the price?

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ma-205162.html

Looks interesting, but where are sourcing it from? A quick google hasn't shown any resellers.

[Pete7]

Mike,

Couple of options:

Try Wilhelmsen Ships Service Ltd, they have a branches around the UK, and are a stockist of Timms rope.
Phone: (+44) 1322 282 400
Phone after hours: (+44) 7710 919 601
E-mail: wss.uk.cs.products@wilhelmsen.com

or:

CIV Lauwersoog - Harlingen CIV Lauwersoog – Harlingen |

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

... but instead match the stretch and as a result, the rigging is likely to be larger but much stronger (I don't believe that is necessarily a good thing)....

Although I could make a guess about your reasoning, I think you need to explain. I'm sure folks wonder.



Also remember that the requirements for a Snowgoose, which basically uses monohull rigging, is different than most multihulls (spreaders, overlapping head sails, narrow base, back stay). You are probably better served by steel, in part because you understand it better.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Although I could make a guess about your reasoning, I think you need to explain. I'm sure folks wonder.



Also remember that the requirements for a Snowgoose, which basically uses monohull rigging, is different than most multihulls (spreaders, overlapping head sails, narrow base, back stay). You are probably better served by steel, in part because you understand it better.

Windage mostly. Not in terms of damaging performance, but I've heard of people getting humming and vibrations from dyneema standing rigging and topping lifts.

Of course if you don't upsize you end up with a stretchy rig. Considering I use 10% MBL tension, I might have little room to manoeuvre.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Mike,

Couple of options:

Try Wilhelmsen Ships Service Ltd, they have a branches around the UK, and are a stockist of Timms rope.
Phone: (+44) 1322 282 400
Phone after hours: (+44) 7710 919 601
E-mail: wss.uk.cs.products@wilhelmsen.com

or:

CIV Lauwersoog - Harlingen CIV Lauwersoog – Harlingen |

What a weird company that UK one is.

I asked them if I could buy the rope online they said no. I asked them for a price-list, they told me they don't have one. I asked them for the price of a 50m and 100m roll, and they said that after checking with a specialist they are unable to assist with my query. WTF, how is one supposed to buy the stuff then?

[jfranta]

Dynice Dux is SK75 that is heat stretched. It has the lowest constructional elongation issues of ANY Dyneema, except maybe SK78 that costs more. DM20 has zero creep but has much more stretch than Dux so you will need to oversize for equivalent stretch. The newer chemistries like SK99 are heat stretched at the fiber level so they do not heat stretch as well as SK75 Dux or STS from New England Ropes or Tufelburger (SP?). Just cut with a sharp knife to see. Dux holds together. If you use Dux at similar stretch numbers as posted on our site, prestretch after splicing, you will not have issues and can use a turnbuckle for tensioning.

We have done standing rigging on over 800 boats now.

John Franta, Colligo Marine.

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

Not quite yet ready for new rigging but was just pricing up dyneema replacements for my 1x19 8mm standing rigging.

Specificaly I was looking at Dynice Dux, Marlow M-RIG, Marlow D12 and MAX 78 and Liros D-pro.

Most say that you should never try to match the MBL, which for 8mm 1x19 316 steel is around 5000kg, but instead match the stretch and as a result, the rigging is likely to be larger but much stronger (I don't believe that is necessarily a good thing)

None of the companies list stretch characteristics, nor do I see it listed for 1x19 316 steel wire. So how to do you go about match them up?

In terms of MBL, the Dux 6mm is around 6000kg, but I have no idea on stretch.

My boat is a small catamaran with 10m aft-set mast. The current rigging is set to roughly 10% MBL.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by jfranta

Dynice Dux is SK75 that is heat stretched. It has the lowest constructional elongation issues of ANY Dyneema, except maybe SK78 that costs more. DM20 has zero creep but has much more stretch than Dux so you will need to oversize for equivalent stretch. The newer chemistries like SK99 are heat stretched at the fiber level so they do not heat stretch as well as SK75 Dux or STS from New England Ropes or Tufelburger (SP?). Just cut with a sharp knife to see. Dux holds together. If you use Dux at similar stretch numbers as posted on our site, prestretch after splicing, you will not have issues and can use a turnbuckle for tensioning.

We have done standing rigging on over 800 boats now.

John Franta, Colligo Marine.

John, thanks for the correction on DUX; I thought it was 78.
When you say DM20 has stretch, do you mean it will elongate when sailing hard and then return to it's original length, but that original length won't change over time? That certainly needs factoring in.
Have you had a chance to play with Marlow's 99 MAX? It's been too expensive for me to do much with.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by jfranta

Dynice Dux is SK75 that is heat stretched. It has the lowest constructional elongation issues of ANY Dyneema, except maybe SK78 that costs more. DM20 has zero creep but has much more stretch than Dux so you will need to oversize for equivalent stretch. The newer chemistries like SK99 are heat stretched at the fiber level so they do not heat stretch as well as SK75 Dux or STS from New England Ropes or Tufelburger (SP?). Just cut with a sharp knife to see. Dux holds together. If you use Dux at similar stretch numbers as posted on our site, prestretch after splicing, you will not have issues and can use a turnbuckle for tensioning.

We have done standing rigging on over 800 boats now.

John Franta, Colligo Marine.

Hi John. Thanks very informative post.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

What a weird company that UK one is.

I asked them if I could buy the rope online they said no. I asked them for a price-list, they told me they don't have one. I asked them for the price of a 50m and 100m roll, and they said that after checking with a specialist they are unable to assist with my query. WTF, how is one supposed to buy the stuff then?

No wonder there is no yacht market for the stuff with customer relations like that. You might try the Dutch link, I think Seaworthy Lass bought hers from them.

Pete

[Benz]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

What a weird company that UK one is.

I asked them if I could buy the rope online they said no. I asked them for a price-list, they told me they don't have one. I asked them for the price of a 50m and 100m roll, and they said that after checking with a specialist they are unable to assist with my query. WTF, how is one supposed to buy the stuff then?

It may be that they only want to deal with re-sellers who will buy vast amounts of line from them. When I went directly to Samson to by line, they told me I had to set up a business account and buy a minimum of 10k a year worth of line to keep it. Some companies can't be bothered to deal with small potatoes.

[mikedefieslife]

Coming back to this as things are getting closer.

Just had a quote for SS rigging. Without labour it is around €2,000 plus tax, for all wire rigging new stalok cones and formers, and all the turnbuckles, and eye terminals etc..

Having another look at this just the M-rig rope on it's own would cost similar to that, plus the eye terminals which are 5 times the price, and then whatever terminals I'd use on the bottom, probably Colligo, which I'd still want on a turnbuckle for easy tensioning anyhow.

I have both roller furling genoa, and roller furling stay stay sail, so those two have to stay with a steel setup.

All in all for materials only, I've priced it at €2,000 plus tax for stainless/bronze, and around €4,000 for synthetic.