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freetime · 30-07-2008, 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eleven

So - Come on you Cat guys. Next get together, even on a pleasant sailing day, log the heading and winds and water speeds.
Let us know what your boat does in the conditions at that time.
Cruisers only? A suitable aid to passage planning - definitely.
And a useful way of balancing performance to comfort before I buy.

Waiting for this....

Or just comparing. A xxx is faster than a xxx in the same size in this wind etc....

Nordic cat · 30-07-2008, 05:31

I have just returned from 3 weeks holiday cruising around the Baltic, mainly close to shore on my souped up Tobago 35 and have noted sailing speeds, NOT VMG, and true wind speeds.

Winds speed: Boat speed Knots

6 around 4
10 around 6 -7
15 7.5 -8
20 8-9.5
Mainsail and jib only (around 60 sq. metres plus 5 sq.m in the wingmast.)

This was with 4-5 adults, 50 kg RIB on the davits, full fuel and water (300 kgs) 2 bikes and all the other holiday stuff, so probably around 900 to 1000 kgs load, so total weight around 6 tons for a 35 foot boat.

On one leg we were accompanied by an X-37 with 3DL main and jib, at 12 knots wind and 50-55 degrees relative we sailed at the same speed, when the wind increased we pulled away slightly, at 6 knots of wind he left us standing.

On one leg we used the Code 0 on the bowsprit (43 m2) and at around 50-60 degrees relative in 12 -14 knots we were at 9-10 knots boatspeed.

So by adding 50% to the mainsail we can keep up with 37 to 40 ft monos that are sailing well on all points of sail except when the wind gets well aft of the beam. (Unless we use the 90 m2 genakker).

At 20 knots of TWS and above things can get a bit uncomfortable due to the very short choppy seas we get in most areas.

cheers

Alan

fastcat435 · 30-07-2008, 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by freetime

Waiting for this....

Or just comparing. A xxx is faster than a xxx in the same size in this wind etc....

Why not start a poll on speeds ?

Greetings

Gideon

fastcat435 · 30-07-2008, 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nordic cat

I have just returned from 3 weeks holiday cruising around the Baltic, mainly close to shore on my souped up Tobago 35 and have noted sailing speeds, NOT VMG, and true wind speeds.

Winds speed: Boat speed Knots

6 around 4
10 around 6 -7
15 7.5 -8
20 8-9.5
Mainsail and jib only (around 60 sq. metres plus 5 sq.m in the wingmast.)

This was with 4-5 adults, 50 kg RIB on the davits, full fuel and water (300 kgs) 2 bikes and all the other holiday stuff, so probably around 900 to 1000 kgs load, so total weight around 6 tons for a 35 foot boat.

On one leg we were accompanied by an X-37 with 3DL main and jib, at 12 knots wind and 50-55 degrees relative we sailed at the same speed, when the wind increased we pulled away slightly, at 6 knots of wind he left us standing.

On one leg we used the Code 0 on the bowsprit (43 m2) and at around 50-60 degrees relative in 12 -14 knots we were at 9-10 knots boatspeed.

So by adding 50% to the mainsail we can keep up with 37 to 40 ft monos that are sailing well on all points of sail except when the wind gets well aft of the beam. (Unless we use the 90 m2 genakker).

At 20 knots of TWS and above things can get a bit uncomfortable due to the very short choppy seas we get in most areas.

cheers

Alan

Excellent speeds for a 35 ft cat Alan

Greetings

Factor · 30-07-2008, 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by bayview

Does this mean that if Cruise Missile had only a couple for crew it would be much slower? .

Absolutely, more crew on a long passage means (up to a point) more people on deck for sail trimming and changes - more fresh hands on the tiller, more informed decision making about angles and directions. If I sail alone there is a reef in at night no matter what the weather, If I have a number of crew I will not reef and carry whatever sail I can

Nordic cat · 30-07-2008, 05:45

I just did the figures:

New mast with all fibre rigging
New main
New jib
Code Zero in Kevlar
Gennaker in bag
Bowsprit and reinforcements
New mast aft for the radar.

Around 45 k€ to get the boat sailing reasonably so around 15 -20 k€ per knot of boatspeed extra

Alan

freetime · 30-07-2008, 05:50

The FP 35 Sounds very fast with all that stuff in the boat. 6 ton and 35 f...

Any pics on the new rig?

Nordic cat · 30-07-2008, 05:56

Will post some this evening....

Alan

freetime · 30-07-2008, 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nordic cat

Will post some this evening....

Alan

You need a homepage with all your ideas and boats...

Southern Star · 30-07-2008, 06:21

Factor is absolutely correct and, in considering a performance monohull, the extra bodies provide a great deal of 'moveable ballast' that will also improve performance.

As to maximim speeds for a given boat, I fail to see the relevance for cruising sailors. When surfing down big waves while overpowered in high winds any boat can achieve some (dangerously) high speeds. The real issue is performance on certain points of sail, in certain types of seas, carrying a certain load of gear/stores, with comparable (but for cruising, conservative) sail and crews of like ability. There are simply too many variables to arrive at any statistically significant numbers.

Comparison 'rallies' conducted by various sail magazines, in which the same crew try comparable boats in comparable conditions are likely as useful a gauge as anything else; nevertheless, simply because one cat is better in light (or heavy air) while lightly loaded doesn't tell you much about how she will perform in different conditions.

I suspect that prospective purchasers are best advised to test-sail boats they are interested in (hopefully in varying conditions) to determine which boat has the balance of performance/accomodation/comfort/safety/price that best suits their individual needs. As an additional source of information, seeking out opinions form owners of the individual brands/models one is interested in is likely to proved at least some honest, if not exactly unbiased, opinions and information.

Brad

ireaney · 30-07-2008, 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nordic cat

I just did the figures:

New mast with all fibre rigging
New main
New jib
Code Zero in Kevlar
Gennaker in bag
Bowsprit and reinforcements
New mast aft for the radar.

Around 45 k€ to get the boat sailing reasonably so around 15 -20 k€ per knot of boatspeed extra

Alan

Hi Alan, Sounds like you had a great time.
So what you are saying the new rig and sails has increased the boat speed by about 2.5 knots at all wind angles, which is excellent.
Was the mast and boom both made out of carbon?
Do you already have feathering/folding props?
Anyway £12,000 per knot is nothing when you have done 12,000 miles.
Thanks
Ian

Nordic cat · 30-07-2008, 06:57

Hi Ian,

Already had the folding props.

The mast is a standard 330mm chord, wing profile in aluminium, the boom is a standard Selden aluminium profile.

I like the 12000 mile comment

I will also post some pics of the cockpit awning we discussed sometime ago on a new thread....

back to the original topic...

Alan

BigCat · 30-07-2008, 07:50

I once owned the monohull version of a roomaran aka condomaran- a Catalina 42 with 3 private cabins and 2 heads. Each kind of boat has its place. I am not of the opinion that all boats should be fast-'built for comfortnot for speed' as a design goal is perfectly reasonable IMHO.

I'm a pretty lazy sailor, and have never used a spinnaker on any of my boats. My BigCat 65 is going to sail under working sails only, as well-so it is going to have a large working rig.

Tnflakbait · 30-07-2008, 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by freetime

How fast is the fastest you have sailed with your cruisingcatamaran?

Brand, Model, wind, speed?

The top speed we have reached with our 1964 33' csk (Choy, Seaman, Kumalae) was 18.4 kts. Wind was about 25 kts just aft of the beam. We had the full main and 140% genoa flying. This is pretty much scary fast. 15's and 16's are done on a somewhat regular basis (still really fast)
In most conditions 10 kts of boat speed is pretty comfortable, however if you are going upwind in large seas it's no good. While the boat is capable of 10 kts upwind it is very uncomfortable and somewhat risky. The boats heel is at about 15 degrees and the boat launches dramatically off of every swell. 6 kts is what I prefer to sail at upwind when in bad conditions.
In winds under 10 kts I find the boat is no faster than most Monohulls of similar size, it is also much less manuverable. The higher winds are when the boat comes into it's own.

The fact is my CSK is faster than many new cruising cats. I think this is because of a change of focus on what people want in a cruising cat. After all my 1964 CSK has very narrow hulls, and weighs in at about 2.5 tons. It has a very small load capacity as well. I'm sure in perfectly flat conditions with plenty of wind we could pass the 20 kt barrier, but I have no plans to do so, after all we are cruising!

BTW... If I were in the market for a new cruising cat, Outremer would be at the top of the list!

This is a video showing how comfortable 9-10 kts is in about 12 kts true: