Faster Catamarans have a much less comfortable ride

[malbert73]

I think more this: So at 8 knots boat speed the performance cat should need less wind to achieve it.

I’d love to have a high performance cat like 44cc on this forum, or the A57 cat I got to sail on a couple of years ago, or a Maine cat. I remember sitting on the Maine cat 38 at the boat show and boy did it move a lot in the minimal harbor swell compared to the heavier monos. And the A57 made me slightly seasick with its jerkier faster motion at 13 knots. Nothing I couldn’t get used to. And I am sure if I sailed either downwind I swell the lack of rolling would compensate.

But to pretend that a lighter faster boat, mono or cat, is always more comfortable is false. And monos somehow can still be fast and heavier displacement while this seems less likely with cats for some reason?

[fxykty]

We have a older performance oriented catamaran, an Outremer 55L. She has daggerboards, long skinny hulls (length to beam ration 14.6:1), reasonable but not super high bridge deck clearance (76cm/30”), a short bridge deck (big tramps forward and empty space aft), and relatively narrow beam (7.6m/25’). Cruising displacement is about 12,000kg/26,455#) and sail area is modest as she is easily driven. Our bridge deck is flat, without any nacelle.

In general, she dances on top of the water. This is very different from a monohull; when transitioning from monohulls most people get used to it but some don’t. There’s minimal heeling, but more side to side movements.

In smaller seas or going slowly (less than 7 knots), regardless of point of sail, it’s perfectly comfortable and drink glasses stay on the table or counter where you left them. Going faster in up to force 4 conditions the motion remains the same. She dad dances, to continue the metaphor.

In larger seas up to force 7 when going slowly she moves up and down with the seas with some side to side and diagonal to diagonal movements. Wave strikes under the bridge deck are rare and relatively gentle. Plates, bowls and pots stay where you left them, but glasses may move or topple if top heavy. She is waltzing.

In these conditions and true wind behind the beam not much changes with speed but the accelerations and decelerations due to swells and surfing are relatively quick. Plates etc. will slide around if not on silicone pads or similar. You may lose your balance and need a handhold. She is dancing the salsa.

Above force 5 with the wind forward of the beam, at speed in open ocean, she break dances. Wave strikes are more common and occasionally hard enough to shake the salon. Lots of micro movements, especially on the diagonal as the leeward bow encounters a wave a second before the windward bow. Some larger movements as she rises then falls to the swell. Books will remain on shelves, but fiddle rails are needed on the hob and the dish rack needs to go into the sink. Flat surfaces remain flat, so laptops and charts stay where they’re left. Slowing down settles everything down.

The movements are very different than a monohull; generally more frequent but smaller in amplitude. Though except for the heeling, I’m not sure the motion is all that different to that of a relatively light and wide modern mono.

During a fast close reaching passage from Fiji to New Zealand, by the third day I was dreaming of shifting to a moderately heavy monohull that would heel to 20 degrees or so and just stay there the entire time. Then we started to slow down a bit during our afternoon meal and the wine and serving dishes staying put on the table made everything more civilised.

YMMV

[Paul Howard]

I sailed a Manta catamaran about 60,000nm, including passage north of Iceland and across the Arctic circle, south and around Cape Horn and to the Falkland Islands, to Glacier Bay Alaska, etc. and had been at anchor during hurricane Sandy in New Jersey. The Manta is a relatively heavy catamaran, though slightly lighter than, say, the Lagoon 38.
I now have a Walter Greene Evenkeel 38 open bridgedeck catamaran that I have sailed to Cuba, Bahamas and back to Toronto.
The Walter Greene boat is roughly one-half the displacement of the Manta and faster on every point of sail, in any wind, so I have had some experience with heavy and light catamarans, though the Walter Greene design boat is not a techy high performance boat, being 20years old.
The Manta was about 16" longer than the Walter Greene boat.

It was a better load carrier.
Going upwind in more than twenty knots of wind the Manta bridgedeck slammed.
Being an open bridgedeck boat with higher clearance, the Walter Greene has never slammed the bridgedeck, though I have not been in more than about 35knots of wind with it.
Crossing the Gulfstream, my wife said she liked the Manta better, as the Walter Greene was 'bouncy.'

The Manta was much slower upwind. Downwind, both boats stand up and do not roll.
The reason I changed from a Monohull to a catamaran (I completed a 42,000nm circumnavigation of the world on a mono) was I could not stand the downwind corkscrew roll.

Though the lighter cat is livelier, I do not find it uncomfortable. The acceleration sometimes makes me grab for something to hang on to.
I have always tried to be careful about added weight on both boats, though I have never weighted down the Walter Greene design (proportional to each of their displacements) as heavy as the Manta.

I like both of the above boats, they are different and do have a different motion in a seaway. Both are very comfortable at anchor, where one spends about 90% of the cruising time.

[barnakiel]

I think the comment in the video is somewhat off.


Both mono and multi boats that are light and sail fast are less comfortable than typical cruising boats DESIGNED FOR COMFORT.


I have sailed a pretty recent Outremer cat and we sailed her fast - most of the time well above 10 kts thru the water, hitting periods of sustained 12-14 kts. The boat was not uncomfortable at all, although, expectedly, the movement and noise levels were not comparable to a Catana sailed at 10 knots. I would be surprised if it were otherwise.



So, define word 'MUCH'. Because I think going fast in any light craft implies a noisy and wet affair.


You can always slow down a fast boat, you can never go fast n a slow boat though.



Cheers,
b.

[billgewater]

If you can't enjoy an evening beer then the boat and its circumstances must be deemed as uncomfortable. If it makes the wife cranky, same thing.
As most respondents seem to be saying "It all depends."
I have been very comfortable on a Cherub and uncomfortable (seasick) on a cruise ship (crossing the Aus. to NZ ditch.).

It is likely that nearly all boats will be comfortable under some sailing conditions and uncomfortable on other conditions. It would be be unrealistic to expect any boat to be comfortable under all circumstances.

The comments above re pitching frequency matching wave period was a problem with early catamarans with stern sections that looked like narrow bow sections. The similarity of bow and stern made resonance highly likely. Then they started making flat aft sections. Problem largely resolved or at least moderated.

[GaryJones]

I don't have anything much to add (as I have already alluded to I am coming from a point of ignorance) but I just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has contributed. I was a little worried the inflammatory title might cause some to get defensive but everyone has been generous and measured.

Again, thank you (and please continue)!

[Scaramanga F25]

In ANY vehicle the faster you go the less comfort is to be had.

In catamarans, the bridge deck clearance is most important in waves/seas.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25

In ANY vehicle the faster you go the less comfort is to be had.



In catamarans, the bridge deck clearance is most important in waves/seas.

In light winds and choppy seas it’s more comfortable to have some speed on rather than wallowing around.

[smj]

The cat we have now is 40’ long with a 25’ beam, has a LWL/BWL ratio of about 14:1 and comes in at about 6700 lbs., probably one of the faster 40-50’ cats around. The motion on her is by far the best of all the cats we’ve owned.
I remember an old surveyor telling me about the “magic carpet” ride where a cat would tiptoe from wave top to wave top. This is as close as I’ve felt to that.

[GaryJones]

Originally Posted by smj

The cat we have now is 40’ long with a 25’ beam, has a LWL/BWL ratio of about 14:1 and comes in at about 6700 lbs., probably one of the faster 40-50’ cats around. The motion on her is by far the best of all the cats we’ve owned.
I remember an old surveyor telling me about the “magic carpet” ride where a cat would tiptoe from wave top to wave top. This is as close as I’ve felt to that.

I assume you are referring to the TRT1200 and not the Searunner in this post (yes I have been stalking you on the forums - very long time lurker)?

That is sort of reassuring as that is closer to the type of catamaran I am interested in and hence my query!

[smj]

Originally Posted by GaryJones

I assume you are referring to the TRT1200 and not the Searunner in this post (yes I have been stalking you on the forums - very long time lurker)?



That is sort of reassuring as that is closer to the type of catamaran I am interested in and hence my query!

Yes, the TRT.
The Searunner weighs the same as the TRT but is smaller at 38’ and a 20’ beam. The Searunner has more motion but to me a very tolerable motion. She sits on top of the water and has a quicker motion than the TRT.

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by smj

Yes, the TRT.
The Searunner weighs the same as the TRT but is smaller at 38’ and a 20’ beam. The Searunner has more motion but to me a very tolerable motion. She sits on top of the water and has a quicker motion than the TRT.

Did you sell the Searunner?

[smj]

Originally Posted by Sand crab

Did you sell the Searunner?

No, and at some point in the near future we will have to decide which one to keep.

[Sand crab]

Originally Posted by smj

No, and at some point in the near future we will have to decide which one to keep.

It sucks being you.

[admiralslater]

We have an Outremer 45 (Danson) and a Light weight version of a Pdq 36 . I would suggest that both boats are performance oriented Cruisers . I prefer a boat that can perform if needed.
I quite often slow down for a more comfortable ride , especially on the Outremer which we sail in the Caribbean in the winter ,those that sail there know the passages are quite often in large unstable seas of 6to 10 feet and that you are very often on a tight close reach. Slowing down means getting the boat under ten knots Max speed usually in the 8 knot range . But when conditions allow I can let her go, passages of 10 to 14 knots an be very comfortable .
Part of sailing a Multihull or any boat actually is knowing when and were to adjust for conditions.
I would rather have to slow down than not be able to speed up.