First Cat for Family New to Cruising

[Capdave360]

My wife and I cruise on a 57' catamaran. We have 120,000 miles of cruising experience between the two of us.

As some have said, you can treat your new cat as a motorsailer - just put the sails up when it's a perfect sailing day, and motor otherwise. Big cats make great trawlers. You'll learn to sail, and if you can do weather & nav at 300 knots you can certainly do it at 10 knots, way lighter workload. Just like aviation, beware two categories of errors - newbie mistakes, and a couple hundred hours later, overconfidence mistakes.

Don't worry about buying a big cat - if you can afford it. In the size range you're looking at, with some DIY and some professional help, very roughly - add $150K for purchase refit, and $150K per year insurance and maintenance. So your two year cruise is boat, plus $450K, plus two years depreciation (rapid on newish boats, figure at least 6-8%/year), plus the commission when selling her. So on 8% depreciation and 8% commission, you're going to net $1.4M, and have spent $450K on the boat - total cost of cruise $850K for two years.

I would never buy a boat for a two year cruise. I'd go to the major builders/charterers, and charter one. Will be cheaper and easier (both buy and sell). Especially at the end of the cruise the market is unpredictable - own the boat an extra year, ouch $.

Having a captain onboard for a while is a great idea, make sure he's a good teacher, not just skilled in the art. Not the same thing.

In your price range I would also look at:

Privilege - nicer boats
Sunreef - nicer boats
Lagoon - biggest volume builder I believe?
Outremer 5X - marginal on accommodations for you, but 2-3X the sailing ability of any other boat on the list.

yachtworld.com is your friend, figure out how to use the filters for cat, price, size.

If you really get bitten by the sailing bug, none of these boats can really sail except the Outremer. You'll motor in light air, and hide from heavy air, leaving just a narrow slice of sailing conditions. If you want a boat that can really sail that also has the high WAF (Wife Appreciation Factor) interiors and comforts, you'll need to 2X or even 3X your dollars. Check the new Gunboat 68. maybe the new Outremer 55 would work?? Check the HH cats.

I like big boats, and I've done a lot of sailing in them. Most complaints (not all) about big boats come down to money, so if you can afford it, don't worry about it.

Hope this helps.

[john manning]

A lot of the replies here are advising you to think again about your plans, especially relating to off shore sailing experience. That is good advice.

On the other hand I have met many couples and a few families who bought yachts to sail the world with little prior experience. I met these people in New Zealand, where I live, and by the time they got here from either America or Europe they were very experienced sailors.

Being a pilot you will understand weather limits for craft. The issue you will not have faced is sailing beyond the end of a forecast.

Your choice of yacht needs to consider comfort for the crew. (A surveyor can tell you if its suitable for off shore sailing.) Catamarans look and feel more comfortable especially in harbours. The absence of heel at sea is also preferred by many. My opinion is that monohulls are better whenever the wind/waves are forward of the beam. (I own both a cat and mono.) The pounding and wave noise of catamarans is very uncomfortable for many people.

My advice (opinion) is that you are spending far too much money. Cut your budget by 70% and find the best maintained offshore capable yacht you can. Forget choosing between cat or mono or sail or motor.

[pbmaise]

You are looking at cats and have the budge for the Rapido 60 trimaran.

https://rapidotrimarans.com/rapido-60

You can get a brand new 60 foot trimaran and pick up a Filipino captain to help you learn sailing. This places you with a new boat and experienced captain to sail SE Asia and then down to Indonesia and perhaps Australia.

The problem you will find is you begin your adventure in the Caribbean is how do you get the vessel all the way to the South Pacific in such a short time period.

[GRIT]

pbmaise, that's a very nice Tri. But I'm guessing that the OP isn't going to consider this boat a contender.

He has 4 children, and would like to bring them with him. The tri you mentioned has two staterooms. Unless some of those dresser drawers are larger than they look, I think his children will be less than impressed with their quarters.


Cheers.
Paul.

[Dave_R]

Look up the YouTube channel "Sailing Zatara." They had a similar sized family, and no sailing knowledge when they started. Started out on a Beneteu 55'(?) then "upgraded" to a Privilege 585. They did not explicitly list the price of their Privilege (used) but implied it was closer to $500k than $1M.

Dad says in an interview that once the kids are gone, and he and his wife will probably keep sailing the boat together. They know it, and find it easy to sail with 2. Though often the kids are making the active crew more like 3-4 when docking or changing sails. But watching the channel, I saw little that 2 couldn't do.

[cr180]

Your budget is way above the pay grade of most of us on this forum. That said, we see more and more large sailing cats out cruising. We have cruised a 47’ monohull ketch for 16 years and the have learned a lot from our relatively inexperienced beginnings with the boat: Every evolution, wether it be anchoring, docking or an ocean passage needs to pre-planned based on weather - wind, current, and sea state. Sailhanding offshore is a chore even in what many would call small seas. Concur that you will spend a lot of time motoring without sails. We as you originally thought we would cruise to South America, but as a family have discovered that we are not long distance blue water sailors. We make the crossings from Florida to the Bahamas and from the Abacos to Eleuthera. We have also heard from cruising friends that Pacific Ocean conditions, while the waves are large, do not present the same challenges as a snotty Gulf Stream crossing. As most of the other responders have noted, it is a big risk for anyone to invest large sums of money (relative to pay grade) and emotion in a boat and a cruising dream whatever the size and shape. But many of us do just that. Lastly would strongly add to the advice about brokers and surveyors, as well: most will know way less about the boat you are looking to buy than you if you do your own homework but will claim otherwise. Not to be trusted. Good luck. Maybe we’ll see you out there. Jeff. S/V Salty Dog.

[tsf]

I would look at the Privilege Catamarans.
As far as a captain a couple months, may be a good idea. I would imagine your 12 year old could help a bit . . . and would be tremendous help in a year or so.

I'm all for doing this, but do suggest you watch a number of YouTube videos. Zatara, etc. and do watch the ones that say 5 reason's not to buy a boat. They aren't all that bad . . . but do educate one to the way of life.

Costs . . . messy . . . need to be a mechanic . . . relationships . . . and make sure that both people are 100% in on this.

Zatara does nice things with homeschooling.

[KevinE]

Do it. The actual process of sailing is not difficult and skills can be fine tuned as you go. You do need to know how to handle things in big air and preempt problems wirh a conservative sail plan. The hard parts will be picking your weather windows on the longer passages and keeping all the systems on the boat running. At the price point you are entering, i would expect complicated and perhaps exotic systems that may not be easy to repair yourself. You need a bit of electronics, plumbing, electrical, dies mechanics and electrical know how. Start browsing the technical forums on this site and ssca. You will get a good taste of what types of problems yoy can expect and you start storing all these tid bits of info in the back of your head. Of course get nigel calders book and read that front to back.
IMO your target is in too big of a boat, you could scale back a bit and your experience will be no different. Understand energy management and what constitutes a well designed system. If you are reliant on genset, think about how you will handle a genset breakdown that you cant fix yourself and you may be days away from getting it repaired. Think about what systems you want to have some redundancy. When you find your candidate google your way though the systems list to see what dirt you can find. Fort Lauderdale is a great jumping point to spend a season in the Bahamas with relatively easy sailing (albeit lots of shallow water so be careful) and you can return to the states to do your refit based in your fist season out, then head for farther destinations. You need to spend time on the boat though testing what works and what doesnt and you will meet tons of very knowledgable cruisers to help you and they will share their setups. On a social level, how will you interact with a cruiser on a 150k boat or do you envision staying in 5 star marinas with the mega yachting crowd? I think when you get out in the ocean, everything in our class/money based society gets levelled out and it will be you against mother nature. We took a 3 year sailing sabbatical through the caribbean and i think some of the people who had the best times were on very frugal platforms. By best time i mean having the ability to immerse and get accepted into the local culture. Money cant buy those experienxes for yoy and your kids.
Good luck and giver ****!

[capnmatt]

Originally Posted by Dave_R

Look up the YouTube channel "Sailing Zatara." They had a similar sized family, and no sailing knowledge when they started. Started out on a Beneteu 55'(?) then "upgraded" to a Privilege 585. They did not explicitly list the price of their Privilege (used) but implied it was closer to $500k than $1M.

Dad says in an interview that once the kids are gone, and he and his wife will probably keep sailing the boat together. They know it, and find it easy to sail with 2. Though often the kids are making the active crew more like 3-4 when docking or changing sails. But watching the channel, I saw little that 2 couldn't do.

I was going to recommend the same thing - presuming you haven't already tuned into it. Your family sounds very similar to the Zatara family right down to your prior piloting experience and a general inclination towards DIY. I think they also have lived off the grid before - or at least in a pretty remote cabin in the Northern Rockies. What I like about their series is they appear to be pretty honest about both the joys of cruising as well as the challenges. They spend a fair amount of time covering equipment failures and repairs, as well as the dynamics of having a large family on a boat and the day to day responsibilities, activities, and (sometimes) boredom of cruising. Their catamarans is close to the same size you are looking at as well so you can see what it's like having 6 people on a 59' cat. Though there are differences between their family/situation and myself, I enjoy watching it if for no other reason than to learn from their experience and occasional mistakes.

I would also echo everyone's comments on here about making sure the rest of your family is on board. A great way to do that might be a several week charter on a large cat visiting multiple Caribbean islands (once they open back up of course). Perhaps one-way from St. Lucia to Grenada, or Antigua to St. Martin, or even Puerto Rico to the BVIs and back. I've done all three multiple times and they can give you a small taste of sailing in more open waters versus always in the lee of an island. I'd make it a point of trying to make passages between islands when winds and swells are up versus in benign conditions. Probably hire a teaching captain to at least get you to your ASA Bareboating and Multihull certification (or equivalent) and then as long as you/they feel it may be required after that. I think with proper instruction though you'll catch on to the sailing part pretty quickly and be ready to be on your own well before the end of the charter. A charter where you just turn the boat in after a few weeks will never be the same as sailing long-term on your own boat, but at least you and your family will get a taste of it.

[Manateeman]

Go. Just go before life passes you by. If your wife can survive boys, storms are nothing. My father was an Attorney in Maritime and Admirality for an insurance company. He called them the agents of fear and death. See a lot of tankers fly an American flag? You can spend $150k per year if you choose to.
Find a licensed professional or yacht master to take both of you out in some real, real bad weather then decide, can we survive this ...given the chances we might never see this weather or anything like it again, ...ever. A yachtmaster course not some salesman.
I don’t care for catamarans and would never recommend a big cat to someone with anything but a lot of catamaran experience. Maybe a Chris White if they must ...have a fast cat. No catamarans for the manatees. Period.
Go to the Netherlands and find a nice big aluminum monohull yacht with a modest sail plan and twin keels. Ask them why people who DO have two million dollars to spend and want to go look at polar bears, buy aluminum expedition yachts NOT, catamarans.

Captain Mark and his manatee crew of professional merchant mariners and boatbuilders. You can see our boat at Ted Brewer.com , aluminum, sail. Shenanigan.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

Go. Just go before life passes you by. If your wife can survive boys, storms are nothing. My father was an Attorney in Maritime and Admirality for an insurance company. He called them the agents of fear and death. See a lot of tankers fly an American flag? You can spend $150k per year if you choose to.

Find a licensed professional or yacht master to take both of you out in some real, real bad weather then decide, can we survive this ...given the chances we might never see this weather or anything like it again, ...ever. A yachtmaster course not some salesman.

I don’t care for catamarans and would never recommend a big cat to someone with anything but a lot of catamaran experience. Maybe a Chris White if they must ...have a fast cat. No catamarans for the manatees. Period.

Go to the Netherlands and find a nice big aluminum monohull yacht with a modest sail plan and twin keels. Ask them why people who DO have two million dollars to spend and want to go look at polar bears, buy aluminum expedition yachts NOT, catamarans.



Captain Mark and his manatee crew of professional merchant mariners and boatbuilders. You can see our boat at Ted Brewer.com , aluminum, sail. Shenanigan.

They want to sail the Caribbean and South Pacific, has global warming really reached the point where polar bears are hanging out in the tropics now? [emoji23]
They are also looking at a boat that can resell quickly in 2 years. Catamarans are a really hot item and monohulls are a dime a dozen because everyone is selling them to buy a catamaran.........must be a reason for that.
The manatees are slow mammals, therefore they probably prefer the more sedate sailing speeds of the expedition monohulls. [emoji15]

[Manateeman]

We are so slow we leave the anchor light on when we are underway. We are so slow the generator exhaust coming out of the stern gains us speed. We are so slow catamaran captains hail us cause they think we are a new lightship.
We are so heavy we have to keep the ports closed because they are underwater.
The OP has four boys. We carry enough food to feed them for two years. We don’t drink but we carry enough coffee for an AA convention. We carry enough fresh water to fill the Salton Sea back up. We are so loaded with supplies, submarines change course. We are so comfortable below we have to serve guests with eviction papers.
Some ancient Polynesian catamarans had near identical bows and sterns. We are so slow we have to check which direction we have the bow pointed in.
We are so slow we’ve been pulled ashore by surf fishermen. The motion in catamarans has been described as quick. The motion in our monohull is so slow baby cradles don’t rock and they cry all night.
Little birds don’t just stop for a rest when we are off shore, they build nests.
Yes, monohulls are slow. A catamaran might be suitable for the Caribbean or the Pacific but for me, survivability is paramount. An experienced catamaran sailor might never come close to capsize. The OP does not have that level of experience with catamaran behavior. A conservatively rigged monohull, twin keel aluminum, would provide a far more comfortable and survivable vessel and is within his budget. Resale value is excellent in Europe. I believe this type of vessel would provide his family a measure of safety not found in catamarans particularly with reference to heavy water sailing or reef grounding.
Captain Mark and his vibrissae faced manatees.
See the video manatee vs glass.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

We are so slow we leave the anchor light on when we are underway. We are so slow the generator exhaust coming out of the stern gains us speed. We are so slow catamaran captains hail us cause they think we are a new lightship.

We are so heavy we have to keep the ports closed because they are underwater.

The OP has four boys. We carry enough food to feed them for two years. We don’t drink but we carry enough coffee for an AA convention. We carry enough fresh water to fill the Salton Sea back up. We are so loaded with supplies, submarines change course. We are so comfortable below we have to serve guests with eviction papers.

Some ancient Polynesian catamarans had near identical bows and sterns. We are so slow we have to check which direction we have the bow pointed in.

We are so slow we’ve been pulled ashore by surf fishermen. The motion in catamarans has been described as quick. The motion in our monohull is so slow baby cradles don’t rock and they cry all night.

Little birds don’t just stop for a rest when we are off shore, they build nests.

Yes, monohulls are slow. A catamaran might be suitable for the Caribbean or the Pacific but for me, survivability is paramount. An experienced catamaran sailor might never come close to capsize. The OP does not have that level of experience with catamaran behavior. A conservatively rigged monohull, twin keel aluminum, would provide a far more comfortable and survivable vessel and is within his budget. Resale value is excellent in Europe. I believe this type of vessel would provide his family a measure of safety not found in catamarans particularly with reference to heavy water sailing or reef grounding.

Captain Mark and his vibrissae faced manatees.

See the video manatee vs glass.

It’s obvious you have to carry enough food coffee and water for 2 years as that may be the earliest that you make landfall......now that’s slow!

[Morndenkainen]

My thoughts...

The broker is going to sell you the biggest boat they can. I'm sure you already know they're going to get a 10% cut. That's some easy math given your price range.

I would suggest the sailing cat over the power cat. Learning to sail IS easy. Mastering sail trim, not so much. However, if your plan is to take a set it and forget it approach, and you were going to motor the whole way anyways... You might as well get the sailing cat.

But why? Got 500 miles to go, good winds, and a bit of extra time? Hoist the sails and cruise along. Save the diesel fuel and the 50 maintenance interval hours for later (@10kts). You'll have that option. It really doesn't sound to me like you're going to be tacking/gybing constantly and running around pulling on every line you can just for the hell of it. Your boat is going to have electric winches, and the lines will in all likely hood be run right back to the helm.

Point is, you don't NEED to be an expert at trimming the sails to get a bit of a boost and some free miles. Even if you suck at sail trim, you'll still pick up a couple knots while motoring along. Not that saving $100 in diesel fuel is going to make a difference in your wallet on a $1.75 mill cat, but it might be nice to do without the engine noise for a bit.

Plus, you said you wanted to sell the boat in a couple years. Which is easier to sell? Sailing cats or power cats? Even if you never use the sails once, the rigging can be a great place to attach some lines or canvas for shade so people can lounge around and be lazy. And don't underestimate the utility value of a winch and a halyard. Gotta move something heavy on/off the boat for whatever reason?

Can you single hand a cat that size? Yeah, and if you plan things out ahead of time, it gets a lot easier. Do you want to? Not really. It's a lot of work, and gets worse when the weather doesn't cooperate.

At the end of the day, a sailing cat is an under-powered power cat. You've gotta live on it and be happy. It doesn't sound like fuel or maintenance costs or engine hours are an issue to you. But, as you said, you're going to sell it, and keeping some hours off the engines might be important to a prospective buyer...

[Stu Jackson]

[QUOTE=Morndenkainen;3423215]>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Learning to sail IS easy. Mastering sail trim, not so much.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/QUOTE]


Many used to believe that. I read all the Sail Trim books I could find in thr 80s and Gentry online.


Then I found this gem, simple, easy, explanatory and works!


https://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?51998