First Sail on Spinnaker

[Cavalier MK2]

I agree with Catsketcher. The easy handling rig is to have a line with a snatchblock/block on it connected to each bow on a cat or each ama on a tri. The sheets are run through these and led to blocks towards the stern in the usual sheet position. Adjusting the snatchblock guys from full on to full off provides a wide range of pole/guy operation. The chute doesn't collapse on a jibe and a sym can go close or deep adjusting with ease. A sym and a full light screecher covers the bases. I agree with the 1.5 ounce as a chute handled like this can get left up into a breeze.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by 2Wind

44C - Nice video. You must be pleased with your new purchase. Great speed. And that ocean......
Can you clarify - SPI or ASI? I might have thought the latter but hard to see the sheeted side for shape. I can just make out a dousing sock? Personally, on a cat, I think an ASI is the better option unless you are planning an ocean crossing of days and days of near DDW sailing.....
It looks like you are using the screecher's fractional halyard - not masthead?
Your new mainsail looks in fine order - no wear on the batten pockets (yet).

My ASI is 155m2 and doesn't like deep down wind (TWA 160-170) especially if there is some oblique swell unsettling the set. I have found, however, that having a reef in the main results in both being able to ease the main more effectively (reducing batten impact on shrouds) and diminishes blanketing.

I also have mine masthead rigged which allows the whole sail to fly higher and slightly clearer of the main. I can also see forward, under the sail from the lofty height of the flybridge!

I have used a three guy/tack line strategy in the past - one to each bow and one to the bow sprint, where one bow line is lazy and the tack positioned/tennsioned optimally by the windward two. Having the option to tension at the sprint is very helpful as you come up more to windward on a tight reach. Now, I only have the third (lazy) tack line if I have crew and am considering frequent gybes where repeated socking becomes a pain (although safer option). If you opt to gybe, be very careful with the lazy sheets and guys as these invariably end up trailing in the water if short handed and represent a rudder or in my case, prop risk (I know you have retractable outboards so no risk there).

Sailing down wind with the ASI in kind seas and moderate breeze is one of life's great joys!
Not as down wind as your's but here is vision of my ASI sailing south from Keswick/St.Bees Islands to Mackay.

Thanks again for you post and for sharing your experience.

Malcolm.

And thank you for some very useful advice!

Yeah you're right, it's an asymmetrical. I guess that in an ideal world I'd have a reacher/screecher on a furler, and a symmetrical spinnaker for DDW.

But frankly I can't justify the cost of a screecher, the associated prodder, the furler and all the other hardware.

I'm hoping the assy will fill the gaps in the light wind sail inventory, which is basically deep reaching/running. At a much lower cost. The assy will be a useful deep reaching sail, and tacked off one bow I think it'll work down pretty deep. The boat is fast enough to drag AWA forward a fair bit.

Our friends have had good success sailing with a symmetrical spinnaker with the main up, but on really deep angles the main is sheeted to the centreline, and the wind blows past it. Ease it out to sock the spinnaker.

I worry about a tendency to round up, but they've successfully used this strategy for many hundreds of miles, and in some pretty strong winds, and it works for them. At some stage I'll probably try it, to see how deep this sail will keep working without the main blanketing it.
I think for now I'll sock to gybe. I'm not racing.


BTW nice video! This is exactly what I'm after - being able to sail at decent speeds on the really beautiful days - ie when there's really not much breeze around.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by yeloya

I was just going to say exactly the same. Main doesn't help at all after 155-160 AWA as it blanket the spi. After sailing 20.000 nm under spi, I came to the conclusion that using the spi w/out the main or deeply reefed main is the best. As you can see on the video, the spi cannot be properly trimmed as there isn't enough wind on it. Some people arue with this saying that if the wind increases, one cannot easily take down the spi. This is not true, you just unfurl the gib to blanket the spi and that's it.
I would also recommend to let the tack line a bit up on catamarans vs. the monos because of the higher roof. Flying spi is a great fun until you drop the spi in the water. Trust me one day that will happen.. In that case the first reaction of most people is to start the engines. Never do that .. (I did it and I know the consequences)
I don't know how big is yr spi but for 44 cat of 6 tons, 140-150 sqm is about the right size.
The best way to judge the efficiency of the hull on a cat is to wacht the water flow at the stern of the boat, the less turbulent being the best. See how smooth it was..I liked the boat very much.. Congratulations.

Cheers

Yeloya

Again, thanks for the helpful hints. I'm told the spinnaker is around 110 - 120 m2, seems adequate.

I'm going to set up a bridle from both bows, so should have a bit more control of the tack position. This was really just a first run to have a look at the sail. It worked nicely so we kept it going for about 40 miles.

[yeloya]

[QUOTE=44'cruisingcat;2308979]I think for now I'll sock to gybe. I'm not racing.
[QUOTE]

That's a very wise decision, unless you have two or three able seaman onboard..

Cheers

Yeloya

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

And thank you for some very useful advice!

Yeah you're right, it's an asymmetrical. I guess that in an ideal world I'd have a reacher/screecher on a furler, and a symmetrical spinnaker for DDW.

But frankly I can't justify the cost of a screecher, the associated prodder, the furler and all the other hardware.

SNIP

My understanding is a screecher is an upwind sail; at least that is how I use mine to best effect. I do use it wing on wing down wind in light airs, but when the wind pipes up I just use the working jib.

While it does cost for stuff needed to fly a screecher most folks thing many cats don't go to windward well and that is where my screecher does best. I do have an assy but unless there are extra hands it is really something I would not like to fly solo.

YMMV

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Again, thanks for the helpful hints. I'm told the spinnaker is around 110 - 120 m2, seems adequate.

I'm going to set up a bridle from both bows, so should have a bit more control of the tack position. This was really just a first run to have a look at the sail. It worked nicely so we kept it going for about 40 miles.

The bridle works well for us. We also can't justify the expense and complication of a screecher. I do plan on getting 2 more spinnakers, though!

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by tomfl

My understanding is a screecher is an upwind sail; at least that is how I use mine to best effect. I do use it wing on wing down wind in light airs, but when the wind pipes up I just use the working jib.

While it does cost for stuff needed to fly a screecher most folks thing many cats don't go to windward well and that is where my screecher does best. I do have an assy but unless there are extra hands it is really something I would not like to fly solo.

YMMV

Screacher is not an upwind sail. See wikipedia below:
"
A screacher is a sail that combines the features of a spinnaker and a reacher.
Its similarity with a spinnaker is that it is not attached to a stay along its luff, and typically has a slightly larger curvature than a genoa"

Code 0 is the light sails upwind.
I've sailed quite a bit with furling screachers. In my opinion, they are expensive, the furler is can be a source of problem and they are not as effective as the assymetrical spi on deeper angle. The only advantage I could see is that the ease of gybing.

Cheers

Yeloya

[Factor]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Screacher is not an upwind sail. See wikipedia below:
"
A screacher is a sail that combines the features of a spinnaker and a reacher.
Its similarity with a spinnaker is that it is not attached to a stay along its luff, and typically has a slightly larger curvature than a genoa"

Code 0 is the light sails upwind.
I've sailed quite a bit with furling screachers. In my opinion, they are expensive, the furler is can be a source of problem and they are not as effective as the assymetrical spi on deeper angle. The only advantage I could see is that the ease of gybing.

Cheers

Yeloya

My screecher could get me to 60 apparent - hell on light air days I could get to 70 apparent on the MPS, (assy) so yeah screecher for reaching but you can certainly go to windward with it.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

Attachment 139951

The bridle works well for us. We also can't justify the expense and complication of a screecher. I do plan on getting 2 more spinnakers, though!

Yeah, I had a couple of "Chicken Chutes" on the last boat, second hand Symmetrical Spis I bought from people on small monos, any time I saw one on gumtree etc for $100 or so I bought it. Theory (Proved many times in practice) that in 25 knots true or better, the very small sym spi could be safely flown with no real danger, for very very safe comfortable and reasonably quick down wind work. They were also light enough to blow up in any rapidly increasing weather and cheap enough to not care. Really worked a treat on a run south Bris - Syd in very strong northerlies.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Factor

I am also a beliver in Assys. However, this doesnt apply with a symm spin on a cat, there are still no poles, no guys, a tack line from each tack to each bow and if you want to get fancy a sheet from each tack to the aft of the boat.

Doh. Spaced that we were talking about cats. I get it now.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by Factor

My screecher could get me to 60 apparent - hell on light air days I could get to 70 apparent on the MPS, (assy) so yeah screecher for reaching but you can certainly go to windward with it.

If you consider anything less than 90 AWA , then you are absolutely right. I can go to 70-75 with my assymetrical. Then, my assymetrical also is an upwind sail.
I don't know what international terminologys says but to me, upwind starts from 60. Moreover, being able to go to 60 doesn't qualify the sails as an upwind sail. But, if you still consider screatcher as an upwind sail, it's absolutely fine with me..

Cheers

Yeloya

[catsketcher]

Both the cat videos show what a large reaching sail can do for a good cat - bring the apparent forward of the beam. That is a fundamental requirement of fast downwind sailing in light - medium air. By keeping the apparent on the beam or perhaps forward of the beam you increase the apparent and increase speed. This is one of my problems with the biplane rig. The magical wind angle in light to medium winds is apparent 90. That is when a biplane does its worst.

I am impressed by the Lagoon's speed. It shows that going for thin hulls to get high performance is not essential for nice light wind performance. In fact the fatter lagoon would have less wetted surface drag than a thinner hull variant (all other factors being the same).

Going on a broad reach in light and steady winds and a flat sea is exactly the sort of thing an assy will excel at. It increases flow on the lee side of the main and gets an awful lot of sail up front (where you want it downwind). It is a good sail to have in the wardrobe.

On our cruises we tended to run deeper than these angles and usually in more wind. (South easterlies flow pretty much straight up the QLD coast). This is where I got my convictions about the assy. As for the cost of a screecher - I got my sail for free - it is old and I don;t take it to close angles in medium/strong winds. That is gear breaking stuff. The hardware did cost a lot. The good thing is that if I can find me a bigger light air number 1 from a 45ft mono and cut it down then I can use it on the same gear. I pull my screecher down usually. I can't bear having it up at anchor or when going to windward. I am different from most in this regard. Most screechers are left up for long periods of time.

The undisputable fact about the two cat videos is that an assy is the best way to get a huge amount of sail up front in these conditions. And it does a great job. I love to keep it up in more wind and this is where the apparent starts wandering really quickly with waves and gusts. If you are fine with pulling down the assy once you are gurgling along well then the apparent angle swinging will not worry. As I have only one kite halyard I tend to put the screecher up and read a book now days.

A friend on a sistership and I were going along together and the wind came around to our bums. His screecher was much bigger and he ran deeper and faster than me. I left our screecher up and didn't get the assy out, even though we had 6 miles or so to go. I must be getting old.

Both these assys are big sails and will require a fair bit of technique to get them down in certain winds. On our boat my wife had a veto - if she wanted it down it came down no questions asked. Our assy has no sock and almost always had the main up with it. To get it down I would grab the halyard and walk to the lee net with the lazy sheet in my hand. The I would ask Deb to bear away - 5 degrees - 5 degrees more - I was looking up and watching the head. When the head shivers you know the sail is close to being blanketed. Then you head down 5 degree more and when it collapses you drop the thing straight down. Huge flailing arms and loads of stomping - get that thing down on the deck. There is no in between - a kite is great up or down but the time in between should be minimised with great energy. With a sock it would be much easier but I still like taking load off with the bear away and the head shiver technique. It was always fun singlehanding under autopilot and running back and forth to get the right amount of head shiver. I would be standing up front thinking that the 10 degrees would have been enough and it wouldn't be - run down the back and put in some more bear away.

Don't come up to get it into the sock - bear away until the kite's head lets you know it is blanketed. (For that matter why do people come into the wind to roll up their genoas? If you run fast downwind the apparent is reduced and the forces go down by the square? - I never flog my genoa in, it just rolls up by hand.) Of course you may have to come into the wind to drop the main. (Or you can really fang along under kite and drop the main during surges/surfs/lulls when the apparent goes down - that has left me with the problem of getting the kite down without any mainsail blanketing but you can unroll the genoa which can help a bit)

At the risk of being patronising the head of the kite lets you know if you are running too deep. I have raced on a few boats where I have had the trimmer call for the boat to bear away because the kite is collapsing and I have said to head up. If the kite collapses by rolling in from the windward luff , then bear away to keep it going. If it just dies look up. If the head is fluttering and the kite is going haywire head up. the main is blanketing it.

Haved fun with the sail. If you come into Lake Macquarie say hello - we have a few nice cats here too.

cheers

Phil

[catsketcher]

At the risk of thread hijack we have turned, from a run, into the wind offshore to reef the main in big winds but never do that nowadays. Once was enough.

Now to reef the main we use the same technique I use to drop the kite - reduce apparent. Pull the genoa out full on a broad reach and when we get on a surge combined with a lull (never try this as a gust hits) I ease the halyard and pull in the reefing lines. Deb can also help by bearing away as we surge. With well lubricated slides and enough winches/ clutches it can work well. DON"T SLOW DOWN and expect it to work. Get surging down the waves and pull it down as you slide/surge and reduce apparent. Reducing apparent by 50% will reduce force by 4 times so any decrease in apparent pays big time. (KE = 1/2mv2)

Caveat - this may not work well if your spreaders poke back a lot.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

I am impressed by the Lagoon's speed. It shows that going for thin hulls to get high performance is not essential for nice light wind performance. In fact the fatter lagoon would have less wetted surface drag than a thinner hull variant (all other factors being the same).

Can you pls explain further this ?
Fatter boats will immerse less, obvious.. but fatter hulls by definition will have more wetted surface , that's why they don't immerse as much as thinner hulls. Moreover, beside more wetted surface, hydrodynamic drag and wave making resistance will be higher as the length to hull beam ratio will increase. (fatter hull)
My experience with fat hulls that they are very slow at light winds, but they have more volume and more load carrying capacity.

Cheers

Yeloya

[Training Wheels]

Don't fatter hulls have less wetted surface for a given displacement?