Fly bridge or not

[fxykty]

Monohull guy says ‘low’ for leeward and ‘high’ for windward, so even though I’ve got a cat now I still use that lingo. Though truth be told, my Hobie 16 definitely has a low side and a high side - almost always ran quite a bit of heel to keep the windward hull out of the water.

Bank balance of almost any boat owner is much lower than preferred - I don’t think type of boat has anything to do with it.

[CatNewBee]

I would prefer a half-bridge / elevated helm in the cockpit.
Better protection and shorter ways up for adjusting the sails / heading.
Having a hard-top bimini is also great.

The boom can be attached much lower to the mast and allows a better point of attack of the wind and easier sail handling in rough conditions.

Maybe you loose the sun deck - but I would sacrifice it's space anyway for solar panels instead of cushions. There is a lot of space up front for getting a proper sunburn if needed - no need to lay around on the roof with the boom over your head.

[Catapault]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

It would be interesting to see how many full time cruisers who have had a fly-bridge over a couple of years, ever went back to a non fly helm other than for a performance quest. So who has owned a Lagoon 440 or 500 etc and then gone back to a Lagoon 450S or Helia 44 or Leopard 44/ 48? I would suggest that the reverse statistic would also be interesting.

From our own experience we had a single seat helm in a performance dagger board cruiser for 15 years, we also chartered several Lagoon 380,s Leopard 39, FP Lipari, over that time in different locations. In year 2013 we chartered a Lagoon 440 in the BVI and thought the fly bridge opened a whole new world to cruising especially in Caribbean. We sold the cramped lightweight performance boat and bought a Lagoon 450F for serious full time live aboard cruising - it has been a really good decision. We have spent 95% of our time cruising between island in the Caribbean, Bahamas, East coast USA and the other 5% doing the crossings eg USA to BVI (1,000 nm).
Steering from the fly bridge in big seas is no big deal, you are only a couple of feet higher than a semi- fly, but the vision is so much better for shallow waters in the day and your viewing range at night is also much improved. Sure in wild weather the helm could be exposed but we have all-round clears and a bimini and that is fine. Most times all the crew/guests want to sit on the fly bridge, not down in the cockpit where there is little breeze, and certainly hardly anyone wants to sit in the salon.

When sailing two up at night, it is true there is no direct line of sight to the cockpit or into the Salon when one of us needs to sleep. If there is an dire need for the crew to be woken or called up, we bip the fog horn.

Much is often made of the higher rig, I doubt a 6ft higher mast makes much difference to a volume factory built cat, in fact the top of the mainsail will be higher and possibly have more aerodynamic benefits.

Until you work out the routine, accessing the boom when packing the main away is the only real hassle, until you get proficient with a long boat hook. If you feel the need to visit the boom on a regular basis, get a hard top bimini.

Having owned both styles I list the main advantages/disadvantages of the fly-bridge


Advantages:
1. Best vision. 360 degree vision from the helm, also good for night vision
2 Eyeball navigation much improved in shallow water, reefs, sandbars.
3 When under way it becomes the social center seating 6 + people
4 Heaps of room for "stuff" binoculars, ipad, gloves, knives, torches, jackets, hats, etc etc.
5. Short uninterrupted walk from starboard to port side,
6 Lines, halyards and winches are split port and starboard so not all piling into the same location, but still easily accessible.
7 Frees up more space in cockpit
8 Anchoring - can see the chain angle from the helm, no need to yell back and forwards to crew. Can see exactly what crew is doing.
9 Nice breeze on the fly bridge on hot tropic days underway and at anchor - good place for cocktails, viewing sunsets etc.
10 Spray from bows whilst underway rarely makes it to the fly bridge, even so a roll down windscreen is available.
11 Crew can stretch out and nap next to helmsman
12 When at sea can see what is going on when crew is working on the forward deck/tramp, launching spinnaker, anchor work, etc.

Disadvantages:
1 Lengthier process to pack mainsail
2 No direct line of sight from helm to cockpit/Salon
3 More cleaning required for Fly bridge area
4 Bimini more costly
5 Bit more windage
6 More elevated position in big seas may feel uncomfortable for some

+1

Agree with everything Bean has said here.

#1 Gets me currently, making me lazy in packing it away every day. (and in fact, not doing it). The Bimini I can walk on will fix that, soon to be done.

#2, Agree, but so far hasn't proven nearly the problem that was thought. I fitted a wireless doorbell downstairs, and have the button at helm as a 'summon the crew' button just in case. Works fine.

When we want to yabber and one is downstairs, we just use our Senca bluetooth headsets. Even if it were not a fly (such as the 400 we've sailed before), I still couldn't chat from the helm to the Salon, so not really a problem.

PS: Senca Wireless headests = gods gift to marriage sanity when doing ANY crew manuvers vs shouting.... https://www.amazon.com/Sena-EXPAND-0...PAND-02+EXPAND

Regards

Mark.

[Ulstue]

In the standard equipment of the L450 (state 2015) with the Vhf B&G V50 in the salon and wireless handheld next the the steering wheel, the intercom is already included.

[Catapault]

True. And good point for newer boats.

I just don't have that version, but older Raymarine gear that dosn't have that feature.

[Deuces]

Originally Posted by Catapault

+1

Agree with everything Bean has said here.

#1 Gets me currently, making me lazy in packing it away every day. (and in fact, not doing it). The Bimini I can walk on will fix that, soon to be done.

#2, Agree, but so far hasn't proven nearly the problem that was thought. I fitted a wireless doorbell downstairs, and have the button at helm as a 'summon the crew' button just in case. Works fine.

When we want to yabber and one is downstairs, we just use our Senca bluetooth headsets. Even if it were not a fly (such as the 400 we've sailed before), I still couldn't chat from the helm to the Salon, so not really a problem.

PS: Senca Wireless headests = gods gift to marriage sanity when doing ANY crew manuvers vs shouting.... https://www.amazon.com/Sena-EXPAND-0...PAND-02+EXPAND

Regards

Mark.

Mark, when you get back in the area, let us know!

[rom]

Originally Posted by Catapault

#1 Gets me currently, making me lazy in packing it away every day. (and in fact, not doing it). The Bimini I can walk on will fix that, soon to be done.

I would not like to have a rigid bimini full time. I have a brand new soft bimini, never used it. If hard bimini is about the sun, then I use a hat and don't spend too much time up there. I like the openness and clear vision over my sails.

If a hard bimini is about packing the mainsail then huh really ? ... so much sacrifice when all you have to do is slack the lazy jacks, lower the boom to your knees if you will, and pack !

Depending on you lazy bag style you may not even have to climb the mast.

[Catapault]

Bimini is about protection from elements for us. More than *a hat* we prefer total area shaded. Both Medical and comfort reasons we need to stay OUT of the direct sun.

And the ability to fully enclose it (create a room basically), see posts from PaulinOz. Either clears, or with shade/mesh for bugs etc.

One more minor point about enclosed, is ability to keep the cats out at the helm and not go running off around the boat. (without always being on a tether).

Either soft or hard top will be made so I can walk on it, to eliminate boom problem.
That said, we are hoping to get an In-boom furler soon, so that point may be moot.

Would they be up all the time ? nope. Is this for everyone ? heck no, but it is a definite plus for us.

Still tossing hard vs soft bimini, but probably going hard-top still. Depends when the BOATs ($) allow it..

Rgds . Mark

[rom]

Originally Posted by Catapault

Either soft or hard top will be made so I can walk on it, to eliminate boom problem.

Mark, allow me to rephrase: You will not eliminate "boom problem" with a bimini, actually you will create a boom problem in strong conditions.

Again, the best option to close the lazy bag is to lower the boom, which you cannot do anymore with a hard bimini.

[Catapault]

Originally Posted by rom

Mark, allow me to rephrase: You will not eliminate "boom problem" with a bimini, actually you will create a boom problem in strong conditions.

Again, the best option to close the lazy bag is to lower the boom, which you cannot do anymore with a hard bimini.

Not quite sure I'm following you here.

The boom-problem I speak of, is packing up the sail / lazy bag when at anchor / in a marina. Currently I do just lower the boom to do so, but generally have to drop the small bimini to do so, or swing the boom out. (which can also do with larger bimini on). Its a bit of a pain, so dosn't happen that often.

With a Bimini I can walk on, I can just go up there, and easily pack away to boom, and even get on the boom to sort out any line issues if I have to. Tested this on the 450's at TMM in BVI once, which have the Hardtop from the florida company. Seemed to work just fine. Also several people here have one, and reports are favorable ! (Paulinoz for a start).

In rough conditions, I'm not packing the sail away like that, and I think I would never either go up to do it, or lower the boom down to do it in such conditions. (If I felt it was so bad I just HAD to tie the main down, and the downhaul was insufficient to keep it down, I'd do so with a line/sail tie of some kind. I wouldn't rely on the crappy sail bag straps anyway).


Bimini I can walk on, assists in general with 'access to the boom for maintenance / pack/unpack" . I do not see it as something done at sea !.

Either way, consideration to be taken into account, as full/large shading bimini (soft or hard) is mandatory for us.

Regards

Mark.

[Bean Counter]

We have a soft top large bimini which is brilliant for the Caribbean sun, it has more sun coverage than the hard top from Florida. We also have clears that attach for full 360 degree protection in cold weather. We installed a stainless ladder to the rear of the bimini and a support post in the middle. On the very odd occasion where we fail to drop the main totally into the lazy bag, I can get on top of the soft bimini center strut and tidy the sail up, this would happen in less than 5% of the time. This is done in calm conditions with boom locked off to one side of center. In rough conditions I just throw a soft line over the lazy bag and tie off around the boom in front of the bimini. If you are worried about sunlight entering the narrow gap of the lazy bag, you can throw a sail tie over the sail bag at the lazy jack attachments, put in a bowline and throw it back over and tighten around the lazy jacks, this brings the two top sides of the lazy bag together. Same can be done at the second rear lazy jacks. It is not that hard to do once you practice a bit.

[rom]

@Mark, when talking about "soft bimini" I had the foldable bimini in mind. But I remember sailing a 450F with a soft bimini that was not foldable ... maybe it is your case. But ok, whichever version it is, if yours in ON all the time (mine is always folded), then what you say makes sense, I agree.

[PaulinOz]

My L450F modifications to help make the raising lowering and packing away of a Fly Bridge Main sail as effortless as possible, are as follows.

1: Lazy jacks are led back to cockpit, easy to release raise or lower to facilitate sail handling (No need to go to base of mast). A piece of shot chord from Lazy jack to boom helps pull it away from snagging the mainsail when one side lazy jack is eased.

2: New Sail bag made (The original is only going to last a year or so anyway) with a zip on continuous line via small blocks fore and aft end of boom. Now the bag can be opened or closed by one person standing on the fly bridge adjacent to main traveler at aft end of boom.

3: Reefing lines swapped out from 14mm double braid Nylon to 12mm Dyneema cored double braid. They run so much freer through the blocks and boom, so no need to stand at mast and feed through when shaking out or putting in a reef.

4: Bimin / Hardtop structure with the ability to climb on and also a park to lock boom down to enabling the topping lift to be unloaded. This gives you the ability to get up and sort out any issues when at anchor/moored quickly and safely without having to adjust the boom up and down or remove the Bimini. (Plus no more noisy thrumming from the topping lift)

Another advantage of the fully inclosable Helm Bimini / Hardtop is at the end of a sail the area can be simply zipped up leaving all equipment, cushions, personal effects protected and ready for the next sail.

On a shall we say a not so comfortable passage, when the rest of the boat can end up looking more salt encrusted than Lake Bonneville your expensive Electronics, all the sail Winches (except for the dinghy raising winch) are still clean and dry, as well as yourself. I for one see that also as a very good thing.

When the going gets rough, the tough get going. Up to a fully enclosed dry and comfortable Fly bridge. That has been my experience in the worst conditions we have been in, that is the most comfortable place to be on our vessel warm, dry, sitting or laying down up on the fly bridge.

I could go on and usually do but hey what ever floats your boat. If we where all the same and all liked the same thing, there would be only one design that would suite us all.

There are many different preferences out there, so many choices. Viva La-difference.

[Catapault]

Slightly older thread, but an update.

3 Years on, we continue to love the Flybridge on the 450 F.

We now have a brilliant hard-top over the flybridge, which added a further 1400W of solar, yet maintains excellent sail visibility. Solar Bimini for Lagoon Catamarans

Packing the sail away is now a breeze, just do it from on top the bimini. (full able to be walked on)

No visibility problems under our Wingaker. The Genoa, when out to port, does require someone to look over that side, otherwise 360 degree visibility.

No real communications problems with downstairs. For the cockpit, can easily lean over to talk / call. For inside, we have a doorbell.

People tend to spend all their time on the flybridge when sailing, and love the fact they can see where we are going, rather than where we have been. Wife considers it MUCH better for her sea-sickness. (dosn't get sick on the fly, does in the cockpit).

No regrets so far.

Mark.

[CatNewBee]

Great to hear this.

May I ask, what you pay for the rigid bimini? I am thinking of making one for the 400S2, a little larger and more rigid than the original canvas thing to have more shade at the helm and with a glas or plexiglas wind shield.