forward cockpits and picture windows

[boatman61]

The reality is.. if nature decides to kick up.. and lets face it, it is getting less predictable as events are showing aint no such thing as a 'seaworthy' boat.
I have seen steel boats whose welded on deck lockers have been ripped off in ocean crossings.
But then we all live in our own little cocoons of disbelief that 'it will never happen to me'..
Till it does..

[tp12]

Originally Posted by boatman61

The reality is.. if nature decides to kick up.. and lets face it, it is getting less predictable as events are showing aint no such thing as a 'seaworthy' boat.
I have seen steel boats whose welded on deck lockers have been ripped off in ocean crossings.
But then we all live in our own little cocoons of disbelief that 'it will never happen to me'..
Till it does..

Exactly. Some people think risk management is all about risk avoidance when that's only a very small part of it. The majority of risks can only be avoided by doing nothing.

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by tp12

Oh right, that's good to know. It was a surprise to find them on his website so I thought I should ask. I guess I'm going to have to step on a few more cats to get a feel for my version of 'acceptable saloon space/sacrifice for forward cockpit ... I was thinking it might become viable around the high 40s/50' range. Tony Grainger has designed a 50 footer with a forward cockpit for a builder to do production-the ocean renegade, have you seen that?

https://oceanrenegade.com/

The idea of a 'small, working' cockpit forward very much appeals to me. For single handing it must be one of, if not the, safest option, no? I suspect it would start to make sense space wise for me around the 45'+ mark,.

On our 46' cat the forward "workpit" works well. At this size we are still able to have a 6' deep 'aft cockpit' for lounging out of the weather, something the smaller Atlantics, with larger forward cockpits, lack. You do have to forego the saloon table at this size. In our case we put in a large platform that can hold a couple of beanbags, a day bed opposite and a galley with a large bar that can accommodate 4 people. This arrangement will not be for everybody, but we have found that it works very well for us. As with all aspects of boat design, there are compromises.

The security of the 'workpit' is a huge plus. All of our sail handling, including raising sail, reefing and spinnaker trimming, happens while standing in a waist-deep pit. Another benefit is that your feet are less that 3' above the water's surface and you are standing at the axis of pitch and roll, so the motion is very comfortable.

[Doek]

OK, one last thing... If you knew that you were going to be caught by a severe, several day storm at sea with huge breaking seas and howling winds, would you rather be in a Valiant, 40, any Beneteau, or any Catamaran? Be honest. I'd be eating my "waffles" safely on the Valiant.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by quackedo

OK, one last thing... If you knew that you were going to be caught by a severe, several day storm at sea with huge breaking seas and howling winds, would you rather be in a Valiant, 40, any Beneteau, or any Catamaran? Be honest. I'd be eating my "waffles" safely on the Valiant.

Having been there, done that I would rather be eating my waffles on any of the above in a secure anchorage..
They all suck..

[tp12]

Originally Posted by quackedo

OK, one last thing... If you knew that you were going to be caught by a severe, several day storm at sea with huge breaking seas and howling winds, would you rather be in a Valiant, 40, any Beneteau, or any Catamaran? Be honest. I'd be eating my "waffles" safely on the Valiant.

I'd MUCH rather be on any of a few specific catamaran designs.

You might choke on your waffles but this is exactly the point I made to your earlier post ... If you're happy, great. If you're insecure in your choices, denigrate the choices of others 😀

[owly]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Not saying that this proves anything, and it involves a motor cat, not a sailing one, but here goes:

A few years back we were on the Clarence River in NSW, Oz. In the marina at Yamba a motor cat came in in some disarray with the forward windows blown in. The boat was on its way to Sydney to be exhibited in a boat show and was being driven pretty hard, trying to stay on schedule. Going to windward in only moderate conditions, a larger than average wave caught them in a bow down attitude and struck the forward face of the house and the windows failed and the boat was flooded. Didn't sink, for the crew responded well, reducing speed and turning back (down wind/sea) and entering the nearest port. The delivery crew wasn't very impressed with the construction and design of the boat! I suspect that the owner wasn't too impressed either...

Jim

What constitutes a "blue water" boat is a category that has been expanded in the minds of many people beyond the original group of heavy full keel thick hull boats with tiny ports and rugged everything, to include virtually any boat that you can cross an ocean with, and in truth you can cross an ocean in almost anything if you are in the trades, and don't get caught in a major weather system.

The fact is that when a boat gets caught in really bad weather, there is a danger of seas breaking over it, and the power of breaking waves has been known to stove in or rip off hatches and windows / portlights, rip dinghies loose that are lashed down to the deck, much less in davits, tear windvanes off the stern, and numerous other acts of destruction.

Clearly catamarans have two (or more) advantages over monohulls.... at least in theory. They ride over the ocean rather than plowing through it. That makes the probability of being overwhelmed by a breaking sea far less, as they will skate down the face ahead of the crest. Even the risk of getting rolled is small. The other advantage is being able to sail faster for their length..... in theory. In reality these grotesquely overloaded things we so often see, frequently cannot do much if any better than a comparable length monohull.

It is realistic to have bolt on plywood storm shutters for small portlights, but there really is no way to protect huge expanses of window. These huge windows also result in a compromised structure. While you can build the same theoretical strength into the structure using high tech materials like carbon fiber, you cannot prevent the windows being destroyed, and once that happens, you are not presenting a smooth surface to the seas, but a surface like a bimini, where the ocean can get inside and rip it off entirely. That this doesn't normally happen, is not a testament to strength and reliability, but to the fact that owners rarely sail into these conditions....... hopefully never intentionally, though I've read accounts of people sailing into major storms intentionally to "test" their boat and their own mettle.



H.W.

[tp12]

As always in these discussions, there's zero balance coming from the mono contributors here. Big windows are a modern trend in boat design. Not multi design only. There's plenty of monos being designed with huge pilothouse windows, huge portholes on the side of the hull etc etc ... do we hear the mono crowd whining about that? Actually yes, but only on an extremely minor scale compared to the criticisms leveled at cat sailors. Mono sailors aren't up in arms about how these boats are unsafe and will send their crews to the bottom. But they'll level the same criticism at a cat.

It's pure hypocrisy. If you're about to dive into this thread and make statements about multihull safety without first addressing those things then, seriously, check yourself. Question your motivation for doing so. You might learn something about your unconscious biases. You might not, too. But there'll always be people who denigrate the choice they didn't make in order to feel safe in their decision. No forum or comments will change that. No one can force anyone else into stopping and thinking about things either. Just try not to be an arse.

[thinwater]

To me, the question is will you ever get breaking waves against the front of the cabin. For me, the answer was yes, it happened in the wake of a huricane. The windows were small (PDQ 32/34) and no fuss. I had green water on the salon roof a few times. A lightweight forward facing door? Just nuts for ocean work.

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by owly

Clearly catamarans have two (or more) advantages over monohulls.... at least in theory. They ride over the ocean rather than plowing through it. That makes the probability of being overwhelmed by a breaking sea far less, as they will skate down the face ahead of the crest. Even the risk of getting rolled is small.

Sorry, but in 'really bad weather' and/or survival conditions the last thing a cruising catamaran should be doing is 'skating down waves ahead of the crest'...

[tp12]

You've both failed the test. Next!

[tp12]

Originally Posted by jmh2002

Sorry, but in 'really bad weather' and/or survival conditions the last thing a cruising catamaran should be doing is 'skating down waves ahead of the crest'...

Have you seen the video of Bullfrog rolling in through Coffs Harbour bar during the remnants of a proper storm? If not, maybe you should before you talk rubbish about surfing

Some/most? multis can surf safely. The vast majority of monos can't, in bar crossing conditions that Bullfrog made look like a picnic cruise.

[jmh2002]

And as a general note to throw in the mix here, most crew give up before the boat does. So many boats are abandoned because crew have had enough and just want to 'get off'.

The first 15mins of the following video is catamaran Ramtha during the infamous 1994 queens birthday weekend storm in the south pacific. Given the extreme survival conditions (70 knots of wind and 40 foot seas) she is handling it pretty well and was found a week later, still upright, and was recovered.

Many monohulls were rolled, and this was when the conventional wisdom of 'but we will come back up and be alright' went out the window. Yes the monohulls came back up, but they were far from 'alright'.

Most of the catamarans fared far better (and should probably not have been abandoned in the first place).

More info here: Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - News Article

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkIuBUVJHQk

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by tp12

Have you seen the video of Bullfrog rolling in through Coffs Harbour bar during the remnants of a proper storm? If not, maybe you should before you talk rubbish about surfing

Some/most? multis can surf safely. The vast majority of monos can't, in bar crossing conditions that Bullfrog made look like a picnic cruise.

I think you have misunderstood my comment, but thank you for your rudeness anyway.

[owly]

Originally Posted by quackedo

OK, my 2 cents. I think that we "Old Timers" in our slow, dark, heavy double enders are concerned with is another Fastnet situation being set up by many current designs. Those IOR boats were sailing all over the planet, but when faced with real harsh wrather, their inherent unseaworthy flaws became tragically apparent on an all encompassing scale. Many of these lightweight boats are crossing oceans and the concern is for the time when actual weather catches several at once and we have a similar tragedy as before. The logic of "We're getting away with it everywhere" doesn't make it right or safe as has been sadly proven in the past. .

That says it all ........ in a nutshell.


H.W.