Gunboat Bankruptcy

[SVNeko]

Well, didn't see this sad news coming.

Gunboat Files for Bankruptcy >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News

[sheldon957]

Isn't this the 2nd time for bankruptcy?

[a64pilot]

I'm a little surprised it took this long, I mean they have had a heck of a run of bad luck.
Can you think of any good press they have had in the last year or two? I think they were still hanging on though, till the Chinese thing, I believe that is what broke their back.

[2hullvenus]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I'm a little surprised it took this long, I mean they have had a heck of a run of bad luck.
Can you think of any good press they have had in the last year or two? I think they were still hanging on though, till the Chinese thing, I believe that is what broke their back.

The entire manufacturing side seemed never quite right to me.

South Africa seemed decent, but they stopped that.

They hopped on Chinese outsourcing. Never a good idea for a high end product.

After those failures, they shoveled money into the new facility in the Carolinas.

Seems like where tgey really lost it was on the production side. Mr J there should have got a little help with that nuts and bolts stuff and remained more of a visionary leader type.

Maybe he will once/if they emerge from chapter 11.

I really doubt a couple of accidents with the boats (owners screwing up) makes them seem unsafe in anyone's minds. I know they seem well built to me.

But just like owning a supercar, you can really mess up if you're not careful.

Good luck to him getting back out of chapter 11.

[Stumble]

I think the real problem is the warranty claims on the Chinese made boats. The boats weren't up to design spec, and GB ate millions trying to repair them, with a future forecast of millions more in the works from recently launched hulls they know are going to turn out defective.

The production shop in NC I think was an attempt to move to somewhere they had better quality control, but was a race against time. But they couldn't get it to full production before the Chinese fiasco ate them alive.

At least the HC and NC boats are turning out well, so long term I think they are going to be fine.

[Skip JayR]

I would say, good news for SIG45 and all the other speedy Cats, eg. Outrember 45... reading the news today about the bankrupcy of Gunboat:

In a period of non-stop accolades and introduction of several terrific new models, Gunboat has been quietly struggling behind the scenes for nearly two years. It has been a perfect storm of adverse business circumstances, mistakes, and disputes. A brief summary from my viewpoint/opinion:

• The Chinese built Gunboat 60 series cost Gunboat a fortune to sort out. The Chinese builder has fought its contractual obligations to manage, support, pay and reimburse for the completion, rework and warranty costs. Gunboat felt an obligation to its customers and spent millions out of pocket, which proved to be a huge strain on our resources, focus and productivity.

• The G4 capsize in April, and the recent photo boat collision on a magazine boat test in Annapolis have thwarted sales of this series to date. The investment was made. The return is in the future.

• The abandonment of RAINMAKER by her owner and crew certainly was not helpful to a new series. The Gunboat 55 is a great boat, and it will take time for that word to get out.

• The ramp up of production in North Carolina took longer and cost more.

I am sure our situation will be dissected. As sole owner of the company, these issues are all mine…..I could have overcome maybe 1-2 of these challenges, but certainly not all of these in one short period of time. Today, Gunboat will file for Chapter 11 protection under the Federal Bankruptcy Code.

With the challenges above, there are also positive notes moving forward. The operations have shown a nice turn-around in the past few months. Boats are being built, and we are meeting our plan for operating the business and recovering through the Chapter 11 process.

Business has ups and downs. Success and failure. I have enjoyed 30 years of both results. While the past two years been the most stressful and difficult period of my life and business career, this period has also been one of enormous assessment and growth personally and professionally. I have learned far more from the failures than the accolades. We have a lot of good people, and we will see our way out of this period in the next two years.

To everyone who has been so supportive, I am forever grateful. To anyone adversely affected by Gunboat’s situation, I am deeply sorry.

(Source: Scuttlebut News on 18th November 2015 - Gunboat Files for Bankruptcy >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News )

I see it following: It is the logically consequence. The boat doesnt have the substance... a big marketing gimmick.

Let us remember: Already in 2004 an Outremer 45 Cat sailed with 22-23 knots (see vid: http://bit.ly/1Yh5YcY ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6JvDxOVawA

Give such "an old boat" some foils, high tech sails on a modern profiled rotation wing mast and T-rudder... and you see the same in the range of 30 knots what we have seen with some spectacularly images with drones of the Orange G4. Nothing new, nothing special. Big show making...

One (as owner/founder/enterpreneur) should know the market and understand customers... and not just selling 100% Carbon at an insane prize in the range of 3-3.5 million US dollars / boat (produced cheaply in China).

The list with critics could go on, e.g. looking at another concurrence. Let's take the SIG45 High Performance Cat going 20 knots easily (without foils) in 18 knots wind. Already sailed in 2008 in the range of up to 25-26 knots ( see vid: http://bit.ly/1WZCwuV ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDLX6Be4CVQ

Later in 2012 the SIG45 was sailing in Frisco Bay the Big Boat Series... but still missing some cool Drone footages as we have seen with G4.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnpxcrrWsXg

A Le Breton Yachts SIG60 (with foils) by sure would be same competitive as the Gunboat.

In other words: there is competitively concurrence... but all the hype around the G4 over last months pretended that this US boat would be something very special and new. So is not the reality.

Saillors with experiences having enough money and knowledge of the market (observing it over last 20-30 years) know all this and cant be made blind by some cool images.

If I'd be interested in cat racing I'd take a SIG45, call the guys of HP (Holland Composite) who built the foils for the Gunboat and order a set of powerfully daggerboard foils + foiling rudders and pace around like mad around the globe presenting cool video clips on youtube. Nobody then would be impressed anymore by this Orange G4 thing. A SIG45 is in the prize range of 1.1 million US dollars, plus a foil/T-Rudder kit... then we have 50"% of the costs for a Gunboat, if Holland composites wanted 3-400,000 alone for the foil set. - So why a G4 ? (Rec.: Probably its less costly, as Hugo Le Breton the founder himself talked in the Cruiser's Forum in 2009 about a prize for the boat without sails in the size of 700,000 Euros with fully interior, exclusively sails and electronics.)

Its always risky to misunderstand "PR" effects (and "hot air") with the substance of the product. Happened very often (and still will happen in the future) top managers became blind because of the big applause they received. Its good for their own ego, but has nothing to do with the "customer's need".

[Andrew Grace]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

I would say, good news for SIG45 and all the other speedy Cats, eg. Outrember 45... reading the news today about the bankrupcy of Gunboat:

(Source: Scuttlebut News on 18th November 2015 - Gunboat Files for Bankruptcy >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News )

I see it following: It is the logically consequence. The boat doesnt have the substance... a big marketing gimmick.

Let us remember: Already in 2004 an Outremer 45 Cat sailed with 22-23 knots (see vid: http://bit.ly/1Yh5YcY ).

Give such "an old boat" some foils, high tech sails on a modern profiled rotation wing mast and T-rudder... and you see the same in the range of 30 knots what we have seen with some spectacularly images with drones of the Orange G4. Nothing new, nothing special. Big show making...

One (as owner/founder/enterpreneur) should know the market and understand customers... and not just selling 100% Carbon at an insane prize in the range of 3-3.5 million US dollars / boat (produced cheaply in China).

The list with critics could go on, e.g. looking at another concurrence. Let's take the SIG45 High Performance Cat going 20 knots easily (without foils) in 18 knots wind. Already sailed in 2008 in the range of up to 25-26 knots ( see vid: http://bit.ly/1WZCwuV ).

Later in 2012 the SIG45 was sailing in Frisco Bay the Big Boat Series... but still missing some cool Drone footages as we have seen with G4.

A Le Breton Yachts SIG60 (with foils) by sure would be same competitive as the Gunboat.

In other words: there is competitively concurrence... but all the hype around the G4 over last months pretended that this US boat would be something very special and new. So is not the reality.

Saillors with experiences having enough money and knowledge of the market (observing it over last 20-30 years) know all this and cant be made blind by some cool images.

If I'd be interested in cat racing I'd take a SIG45, call the guys of HP (Holland Composite) who built the foils for the Gunboat and order a set of powerfully daggerboard foils + foiling rudders and pace around like mad around the globe presenting cool video clips on youtube. Nobody then would be impressed anymore by this Orange G4 thing. A SIG45 is in the prize range of 1.1 million US dollars, plus a foil/T-Rudder kit... then we have 50"% of the costs for a Gunboat, if Holland composites wanted 3-400,000 alone for the foil set. - So why a G4 ? (Rec.: Probably its less costly, as Hugo Le Breton the founder himself talked in the Cruiser's Forum in 2009 about a prize for the boat without sails in the size of 700,000 Euros with fully interior, exclusively sails and electronics.)

Its always risky to misunderstand "PR" effects (and "hot air") with the substance of the product. Happened very often (and still will happen in the future) top managers became blind because of the big applause they received. Its good for their own ego, but has nothing to do with the "customer's need".

Sorry Skip but I think your monologue is one of the most offtopics I have read, seems your really have axe grinding session,

I feel sad for the team in Carolina and really hope that Peter is only using Chapter 11 in the USA merely as a tool for the company to restructure more easily with its creditors and I am sure GB will come out stronger than before.

[Stumble]

Skip,

What a load of hogwash. First Holland isn't just building the foils they are building the entire G4. I doubt they are going to sell you just a set of foils.

Secondly the G4 isn't a terribly expensive boat. I think around $850,000. So your slower, heavier, option is also substantially more expensive.

Third, adding new lifting foils to a 40' boat isn't as easy as just slotting in some new toys. The entire support structure of the boat has to be designed to carry the load. Until you are comfortable with those T foil brackets carrying 5,000lbs of dynamic load at upwards of 30kn you aren't close to the same boat.

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Skip,
What a load of hogwash.

Feel free to think what you like to think....

Originally Posted by Stumble

First Holland isn't just building the foils they are building the entire G4. I doubt they are going to sell you just a set of foils.

I am on contact with HC... of course they like to sell their foil kits to other catamarans. They would be stupid not to do so.

Originally Posted by Stumble

Secondly the G4 isn't a terribly expensive boat. I think around $850,000. So your slower, heavier, option is also substantially more expensive.

I heard of 2.5 mio. in total. Maybe if they start a small series (for now they are building in Netherlands G4 No. 2 with launch in March 2017) they might bring down the costs.

Originally Posted by Stumble

Third, adding new lifting foils to a 40' boat isn't as easy as just slotting in some new toys. The entire support structure of the boat has to be designed to carry the load. Until you are comfortable with those T foil brackets carrying 5,000lbs of dynamic load at upwards of 30kn you aren't close to the same boat.

Thats little bit wrong... I am not a foil expert, but what I have learnt from the HC guys directly that the foils have a range of performance and a flexible trimming unit, vertically and horizontally. It does not need a "single built version".
Mostly what counts is the weight. As this is the job of the foils to do: bringing uplift. E.g. for avoiding pitching you can take a foiled T-Rudder seperately.

The G4 is around 2.5 tons. So if you have another 40 footer with same weight roughly, it might work quickly to use the same foils of the Gunboat. More then it needs adaption of the rigging and the amas to bear the different stresses and loads around the foil cases. But thats not the job of the HC guys as herefor they have some partners externally to calculate sails plan, mast dimensions given by righting moments etc. ...

[OBXSkipper]

The production facility provides jobs for quite a few of our locals around here, Wancheese is only a few miles from me, I hope they can find a way to regroup and somehow carry on.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by OBXSkipper

I hope they can find a way to regroup and somehow carry on.

If my understanding is correct, that is the purpose of Chapt. 11

[Littlechay]

Originally Posted by Andrew Grace

I feel sad for the team in Carolina and really hope that Peter is only using Chapter 11 in the USA merely as a tool for the company to restructure more easily with its creditors and I am sure GB will come out stronger than before.

Strong! They have never been strong; always running on a knife edge. Anybody thinking about buying a GB will be very afraid to put any money down if they ever start up again after this.... what their third failure! When people pay that much money for a boat they don't want to have to rescue a half completed boat from a failed factory and finish it themselves!

[Travis McGee]

Kudos to Peter Johnstone for "daring big."

Sometimes giants run too fast, trip, and fall hard ... and then the pygmies have a good laugh. But the giant is still a giant, and the pygmies are still pygmies.

After the dust settles, I'd love hear his frank thoughts on the Chinese outsourcing debacle, and any larger lessons found there. There is probably a book in there, if he wants to write it, I'll read it.

One thing I feel pretty sure of is that Peter will be back, smarter than ever, having incorporated many hard lessons.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Littlechay

Strong! They have never been strong; always running on a knife edge. Anybody thinking about buying a GB will be very afraid to put any money down if they ever start up again after this.... what their third failure! When people pay that much money for a boat they don't want to have to rescue a half completed boat from a failed factory and finish it themselves!

It is assumed in a large build like a GB that there is a performance bond taken out with the construction contract. I would be suprizes if any of the new owners gets hammered too bad. Unless they buy back unfinished hulls and try to finish the boat themselves.


But so far GB is restructuring, i.e. shedding debt, not closing down. The first goal in a restructuring is keeping product going out the door.

[Skip JayR]

Netherland company goes onto distance clearly to Gunboat USA !! - Holland Composites published this declaration this morning:

Quote:
As builder and designer of the G4, Holland Composites / DNA wants to state that we are sorry about the latest developments at GB, and also feel sorry for all people involved. Concerning the G4 project: this is not affected by the situation as Holland Composites is a independent company running the design and build for the G4.

Holland Composites continues developing, building, marketing and to sell the G4.

The second boat is hitting the water March 2016, carbon casco is allready finished. Lots of improvements will be intergrated, based on the experience while racing and (off shore) cruising the boat in the past months.

With more hydraulics on board It will be safer, faster and easier to foil.The first computer assisted foiling boat available perhaps.....!
We will keep you updated, Lots of stunning new stuff for the G4 will be shown by us soon. Stay tuned.
(Source: HC's Facebook page... https://www.facebook.com/hollandcomp...09500039104142 )