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Heath68 · 13-02-2015, 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

Where are the industry investigative journalists working for the sailing magazines when you need them. Where are the interviews of the eyewitness crew and passengers? How silly of me to expect that from glossy rags who's pages are bought and paid for by boat builders and their suppliers. Call me a cynic...

Or a realist. Having a marketing degree and a lot of experience in this field its often a difficult choice for a company in this sad situation between disclosure and saturninity.. a depressive state of silence. I'm not certain without more information what happened and who or what is to blame. I can't afford one so its not my concern. All I can say is lessons will certainly be learned and thank whatever God you believe in that people were not harmed.

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robert sailor · 13-02-2015, 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heath68

Or a realist. Having a marketing degree and a lot of experience in this field its often a difficult choice for a company in this sad situation between disclosure and saturninity.. a depressive state of silence. I'm not certain without more information what happened and who or what is to blame. I can't afford one so its not my concern. All I can say is lessons will certainly be learned and thank whatever God you believe in that people were not harmed.

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Kinda hard to thank whatever god you believe in for saving 5 people when he is allowing millions elsewhere to be killed.

Jon Eisberg · 13-02-2015, 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palarran

Also, on the SA thread, were those guys captains or crew of Gunboats? I read it as crew. Not that it matters much but they really put the lid on the "Anarchists" over there. Totally cracked me up.

Could be just me, but I think some of the stuff over there from those 'Gunboat Pros' might best be taken with a grain or two of salt... ;-)

After reading something like this;

Quote:

For all the folks questioning the crew's decision to leave given the forecast, normally a Gunboat wouldn't blink at that forecast. We've knowingly stepped out into far worse plenty of times without hesitation. It actually looked like a fun forecast, a downwind sleigh ride and a trip to the E. Caribbean without tacking once. I was jealous, if my wife hadn't given birth to our baby boy a week ago I would've been there with them. Taking off on the backside of a low, in advance of the next one, is a valid strategy and one we've used many times. You use the dying breeze on the backside to get down the track and away from the next one.

My first delivery on a Gunboat we cast off the dock lines from Newport in Dec in 35-40kts, saw 40-50, and hit a top boatspeed of 36.6. We were still sleeping off watch, still cooking, still "living easy". The only part that was scary was that it wasn't scary. Hitting 30's in the dark, alone on watch, coffee cup in hand and not panicking just felt wrong. But it was safe, fast, and fun. There was no reason to believe this delivery wouldn't be the same.

...and then trying to reconcile such an account of fingertip steering @30 knots with a cup of coffee in one hand, with the reality of RAINMAKER's passage - which barely averaged 6 knots over 36 hours, resulted in the loss of the rig, and a chopper ride back home, well...

Something doesn't add up, to me... ;-)

Jon Eisberg · 13-02-2015, 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by C.Karo

Last I heard. Manf. Gunboat is going to get that cat and fix her. No cost to the owner.

Well, I'm not much of a betting man, but I sure wish there was someplace I could lay down a wager against the likelihood of that actually happening...

;-))

Heath68 · 13-02-2015, 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Kinda hard to thank whatever god you believe in for saving 5 people when he is allowing millions elsewhere to be killed.

Well they say "he" works in mysterious ways... by the way I'm an agnostic aethietist so I really don't think about it too much.. much of the world (imo) is troubled and some of it doesn't even know why. So I worry only about what I can affect. Me. My Family. Friends. People I meet. In that order. I can't change the world.. I don't have that power.

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robert sailor · 13-02-2015, 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heath68

Well they say "he" works in mysterious ways... by the way I'm an agnostic aethietist so I really don't think about it too much.. much of the world (imo) is troubled and some of it doesn't even know why. So I worry only about what I can affect. Me. My Family. Friends. People I meet. In that order. I can't change the world.. I don't have that power.

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Good attitude, you'll live a happy life!

Sand crab · 13-02-2015, 15:31

SA member Soma was the captain on one or more GBs, Pyrat is a captain and was crew on Rainmaker before this incident and claims to have sailed with that captain a lot with either one being the captain. They refer to CB who was a GB captain as well. I haven't figured out who he is. They all seem to know each other as you would expect they would.
They seem legit.

Soma has GB vids

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD_p6AhSJSM

Polux · 13-02-2015, 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Could be just me, but I think some of the stuff over there from those 'Gunboat Pros' might best be taken with a grain or two of salt... ;-)

After reading something like this;

Quote:My first delivery on a Gunboat we cast off the dock lines from Newport in Dec in 35-40kts, saw 40-50, and hit a top boatspeed of 36.6. We were still sleeping off watch, still cooking, still "living easy". The only part that was scary was that it wasn't scary. Hitting 30's in the dark, alone on watch, coffee cup in hand and not panicking just felt wrong. But it was safe, fast, and fun. There was no reason to believe this delivery wouldn't be the same.

...and then trying to reconcile such an account of fingertip steering @30 knots with a cup of coffee in one hand, with the reality of RAINMAKER's passage - which barely averaged 6 knots over 36 hours, resulted in the loss of the rig, and a chopper ride back home, well...

Something doesn't add up, to me... ;-)

You mean a grain of salt or a truck load of salt? professional sailors on really fast 50/60ft race trimarans (that would make the Gunboat really slow) are scared on those conditions and try to manage speed and the boat motion not to break or capsize and that skipper of that Gunboat talks about 30/36K speed and living easy, not spilling the coffee on a dark night???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKq_cZrhcDo

Probably they are going between 25 and 27K...off course a Gunboat would go at 30 or 36K with the guy on the wheel drinking a cup of coffee.

beiland · 13-02-2015, 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Going Walkabout

Thanks Brian. Very helpful. My cat experience is days on Sydney Harbour on Hobby Cats. I've even taken them out through the heads into the coastal Pacific. I did crazy things at a young age to get my fix of speed. Now all I want is a good solid breeze and enjoy the smooth massage to my soul that the ocean gives. But my days of sailing Hobby Cats sure taught me how to manage those sails. I very much appreciate your experience and that you passed it on.

Regards,
Chaya (GoingWalkabout)

BTW that experience was on a 41 foot monohull ketch (47 with bow sprit).

And I had just installed a brand new diesel engine that sat down below a big hatch that was the cockpit floor. That hatch had a pretty good seal also, but when a couple of following waves filled that cockpit area, water invariable leaked down on my brand new engine.

I decided to go forward and rehoist the small jib so I could regain the speed I had lost trying to go under bare poles to save the sails for later use. That is also what I am talking about 'adjusting' your surfing speed to the existing conditions. It's not just a 'set-it-and-forget' situation as some drogue aficionados claim,...at least not in my experience.

And I say I was trying to 'save the headsails' for later use when things calmed down. That little staysail jib was taking a beating as it gibed back and forth with the slew we experienced in steering down the face of those big waves. I thought well I will sacrifice this little jib for my engine,...besides I didn't care for those wave tips crashing over the helm area....damn chilly and wet. I can laugh about it now, but it was NOT funny at the moment.

beiland · 13-02-2015, 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by avb3

Yes, but just think...... No scuppers to get plugged.

VERY good point. I was always amazed at the relatively small scuppers that were put on MANY sailboats....just toooo small

Jon Eisberg · 13-02-2015, 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sand crab

SA member Soma was the captain on one or more GBs, Pyrat is a captain and was crew on Rainmaker before this incident and claims to have sailed with that captain a lot with either one being the captain. They refer to CB who was a GB captain as well. I haven't figured out who he is. They all seem to know each other as you would expect they would.
They seem legit.

I have little doubt they're legit... However, the one thing that has mystified me about this incident right from the beginning, is how little distance RAINMAKER covered during the 36 hours until the dismasting, I think there must be some blanks that need to be filled in...

Hell, a Westsail 32 probably could have matched that pace, or come close to it...

;-))

beiland · 13-02-2015, 17:06

Quote:

For all the folks questioning the crew's decision to leave given the forecast, normally a Gunboat wouldn't blink at that forecast. We've knowingly stepped out into far worse plenty of times without hesitation. It actually looked like a fun forecast, a downwind sleigh ride and a trip to the E. Caribbean without tacking once. I was jealous, if my wife hadn't given birth to our baby boy a week ago I would've been there with them. Taking off on the backside of a low, in advance of the next one, is a valid strategy and one we've used many times. You use the dying breeze on the backside to get down the track and away from the next one.

My first delivery on a Gunboat we cast off the dock lines from Newport in Dec in 35-40kts, saw 40-50, and hit a top boatspeed of 36.6. We were still sleeping off watch, still cooking, still "living easy". The only part that was scary was that it wasn't scary. Hitting 30's in the dark, alone on watch, coffee cup in hand and not panicking just felt wrong. But it was safe, fast, and fun. There was no reason to believe this delivery wouldn't be the same.

I can believe this. That was part of the rational I used when leaving the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay on a Christmas eve night headed for the Caribbean.

Two primary problems can arises. First you need to be sure and get out past the gulf stream, and secondly hope that the storm is not so intense that it blows for days. That greater period of big wind means the seas really get big.

In another case I knew of, and had been warned to not leave Ft Laud to go to the Bahamas in a northerly blow. But again my reason to consider it was that I would great wind for propulsion, it would be on the beam, and the steep seas would also be on the beam. As long as I was moving forward across the seas I would have a great ride. And it was,...again it was a monohull.

GoingWalkabout · 13-02-2015, 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by beiland

BTW that experience was on a 41 foot monohull ketch (47 with bow sprit).

And I had just installed a brand new diesel engine that sat down below a big hatch that was the cockpit floor. That hatch had a pretty good seal also, but when a couple of following waves filled that cockpit area, water invariable leaked down on my brand new engine.

I decided to go forward and rehoist the small jib so I could regain the speed I had lost trying to go under bare poles to save the sails for later use. That is also what I am talking about 'adjusting' your surfing speed to the existing conditions. It's not just a 'set-it-and-forget' situation as some drogue aficionados claim,...at least not in my experience.

And I say I was trying to 'save the headsails' for later use when things calmed down. That little staysail jib was taking a beating as it gibed back and forth with the slew we experienced in steering down the face of those big waves. I thought well I will sacrifice this little jib for my engine,...besides I didn't care for those wave tips crashing over the helm area....damn chilly and wet. I can laugh about it now, but it was NOT funny at the moment.

Thanks again Brian. Real sailing experience like yours beats all the theory in the world found in books. Not that I'm knocking books. Do you think the forward aft motion of a similar sized mono compared with a multi would be similar? The reason I ask is the risk of speeding down too fast a wave on a multi could see your bows buried dangerously in the bottom of the wave. Theoretically one would think both same sized hulls would have the same danger. This is if course not taking into account the shape of the hulls.

I have heard other ways to handle big waves is to slide broadside down them. That scares the willies out of me with some understanding of the lateral forces being applied to the vessel. Another is to go head in into the waves. When I had a motor boat in New York I would always point the bow into the waves. But then I've seen large ships do this and get almost buried as the wave crashes from bow to stern over them.

I suppose the bottom line is to hope and pray that you don't find yourself in skyscraper sized waves to begin with. I think this waves that I've seen pictures of that still scare the daylights out if me were in the North Atlantic.

My great great grandfather was shipwrecked on a trading vessel off the West Coast of Australia in the 1800's. He was the captain and a very good one at that but at the end of the day the Indian Ocean did his boat in. Luckily for him he was washed ashore, found by a remote Aboriginal tripe who took him in and took care of him while he recovered. Enough of that. The point I'm making is that I have a huge respect for the ocean and it's ability to humble all of us and make us shake at our knees.

Even knowing the fate of my great great grandfather I still choose to go to sea. I must have it running through my veins. But I want to be prepared the best I can for my circumnavigation plans.

Again I so very much appreciate your sharing of your wisdom and experience. Thank you.

Sailingcouple13 · 13-02-2015, 20:02

We spent close to two hours on the 55 on Thursday with Peter and the current owners. They did not shy away at all on the speculations of what happened or why the owners made the call to abandon the boat. As a prospective buyer of a 55 I am satisfied with the answers so far. As well as understanding that telling this forum what our thoughts are, would not be productive. Take the time visit the factory in North Carolina or make an appointment to board at one of the shows and find that no one is hiding. The market place this type of boat is very narrow and if you are in it the availability for all your answers are there, and extremely available.

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