Hanstaiger $5mm Trimaran and Danger Zones

[pbmaise]

As a former large trimaran owner, I was pleased to see a new big trimaran manufacturer. The Hanstaiger XI is a twin-engine, 64 ft long, 32 ft wide trimaran built in Spain.

Videos of the vessel are at the manufacturer's website, and a listing for what appears to be hull #1 is on Yacht World.



Currently the Yacht World advertisement lists the sailboat version and it is also available as a motor yacht.

I wish to provide some constructive thoughts about this design based upon my experience owning a larger trimaran for over a decade.

Before I discuss what is wrong with the Hanstaiger X1, I want to first discuss what is right.

#1 - Like the Neel trimarans, the X1 takes advantage of the trimaran's width provides far more living space and air conditioning. Aboard my vessel, despite occupying more berth, it had a fraction of these creature comforts.

#2 The owner's suite is located in the bow and amply lit.

#3 - The X1's independent engines, props, and rudders in the two ama provide valuable peace of mind.

#4 - The X1 is epoxy foam core versus my vessel which was epoxy balsa core.

My primary concerns are:
#1 Safe access to sails and rigging.
#2 Safe boarding of the vessel.
#3 Interior stair railings.
#4 The anchoring system.
#5 Shaft, propeller, and rudder design.

My secondary concerns are
#6 Excessive vessel weight and rig size.
#7 Number of hull penetrations.
#8 Color and heat load.
#9 Helm controls.

I will be writing an individual post about each concern. Again, these are only my opinions and based upon my personal experiences.

[pbmaise]

My primary concerns are:
#1 Safe access to sails and rigging.

Despite what the owner of the firm says in a video, there is no escaping the fact a cruising sailing boats requires safe access to all rigging and sails.

Obviously, there is the sloped surface on the bow, however, also notice the sloped surface below the bow. The connection points at the ama are also not safe. Glazing appears strong enough to stand on, however, would you stand on sloped wet slippery surface with nothing to prevent you falling overboard.



Suggestions:

1. A cruising version of this vessel requires far more safety protection to prevent someone from going overboard. Horizontal spacing or safety lines must prevent someone from slipping under railings that need to be added. There must be several latch points for crew/owner to safely tie on to descend to the bow wearing safety harnesses.

2. It might be possible for the top layer of the double layered glazing to have deep groove or tall raised bumps to provide traction.

3. There needs to be a strong attachment point for an inner stay sail.

4. Under no circumstances should anyone suggest this vessel ever fly a spinnaker. The manufacturer appears to have already realized this. I used to fly multiple sails downwind by making attachments to the ama. I suggest the manufacturer add both attachment points to the ama bows and rigging lines to raise/lower additional downwind sails.

5. The bows of the ama need full protection on this vessel owing to the bow shape. Therefore, the current sailing system, looks pretty, but is not safe. Safe access to the tip of the ama bow is needed when docking and anchoring on a three-point mooring.

[pbmaise]

My primary concerns are:
#1 Safe access to sails and rigging.

Some serious thought needs to go into how to get to an accidental jibe preventer.

Also, aboard my trimaran I had to really come up with some novel ways to control the clew of the jib. I utilized two attachment points and ran the sheets through two different blocks that helped bring the clew down. One block was located on the main hull, and used to wind. The other block was located way out at the edge of the ama and used downwind. I see no easy way to switch between points of sailing to control the jib.

[pbmaise]

My primary concerns are:
#2 Safe boarding of the vessel.



When there is any sea-state, I don't see the approach shown in the above photo as being safe. I would never show a picture with a person standing in the dinghy as shown.

[pbmaise]

#3 Interior stair railings.



What is it with European's? Don't they ever fall down the stairs? These are one heck of a lot of steps to come down.

Yes there is a railing, however, they do not go all the way to the top of the stairs. You would need to descend the steps about 4 steps before being able to hold onto anything.

In my opinion, the railings make this vessel dangerous when at dock.

This is a very simple fix and involves just running the railing to the full length of the staircase. Don't be a Lagoon and ignore this issue. I have heard of someone taking a tumble on Lagoon's stairs and anyone can see this is a problem waiting to happen.

p.s. Like me, the manufacture found room to put a keyboard aboard. For a cruising sailing version I recommend dropping some of the weight by eliminating the fancy case. I mounted my Yamaha keyboard aboard a light shelf as their frame was too heavy.

[pbmaise]

My primary concerns are:
#4 The anchoring system.



No no no no no no no no!

Absolutely NO!

We cruisers here have never seen this type of anchor for good reason. How do you get to it? If I need to drop an anchor and attach a different one, how am I going to do that? Isn't this the perfect spot for marine growth on the anchor? How do you clean it? How do you remove the mud from the anchor chain?

Fine, you can do this on a motor yacht. But under no circumstances set sail aboard this vessel until few basic anchoring problems are addressed.

Firstly, get rid of the bow thruster for the cruising sailing version. If I can pull into One 15 Marina in Singapore and dock a far wider trimaran next to superyachts using only one engine, even an idiot should be able to control this vessel with twin engines. Hint. I found a very long floating sisal rope to be a great aid. Further, you have a dinghy with an engine to push the bows of this narrow trimaran.

Secondly, cut a nice hole in the side of the bow and draw up the anchor above the waterline. Further, the anchor can't slam and raddle against the vessel in the waves when on a mooring. Yes you may need to lose some of the seating area of the front stateroom for a proper anchor locker.

[pbmaise]

My primary concerns are:
#4 The anchoring system.

In addition to anchor type and location. I have to discuss size. Despite having a 75 kg Rocna style anchor and 100 meters of chain I still was had issues.

Issues are simply not something that can be taken lightly when there is a 50 knot breeze blowing you to shore.

Yes, vessel size, windage and winds and conditions, that very few people on this forum have ever seen, are involved. With all my ground tackle out, I dragged almost a full kilometer along a sandy shore before I finally stopped progression by utilizing engine power to counteract windage. This took three people. I sat on the bow in a thunderstorm watching the chain rise and fall as the engine cycled forward/neutral. One crew member sat midway to relay commands. One crew member ran the engine. Compared to my vessel your vessel is windage super tanker.

If cruising anywhere aboard this vessel, absolute rule number one should be, never anchor anywhere unless you leave trained crew members aboard to bring up the anchor and set sail.

The bow shape basically precludes the use of a decent anchor like a Rocna so a cruising version of this vessel is going to have to depend upon chain weight. And, that is to just hold this vessel in mild conditions. The trained crew rule should still apply.

P.S. I have hired temporary crew to babysit aboard my vessel when I wanted everyone to shore for dinner. My vessel would not have blown to shore in the King's Cup incident that put every single multi-hull that was racing that day in Phuket.

[pbmaise]

My primary concerns are:
#4 The anchoring system.

As I watch the videos of this vessel hobby horsing in very mild seas it is clear to me that we are already dealing with weight issues.

There is no escaping the fact that this vessel is tons and tons overweight.

Therefore, solving the problem of making sure the ground tackle is safe for a cruising version is a compound problem.

1. Address anchor type and location.
2. Address access to the windlass.
3. Address adequate storage of backup anchors and how to install them in a pinch.
4. Address chain weight and hobby horsing issue.
5. Address chain access to untwist and clean it.


Item 5 is not really something many of the jet set understand until they experience what we really do from time to time aboard a cruising vessel.

Okay picture this, after spending several days in the perfect cruising locations on anchor, you go to drop anchor and it won't deploy. All those days on the hook added twist after twist into a 100 plus meters of chain. There is nothing in your chain locker but a mass of twisted steel. Hundreds and hundreds of pounds of steel that must be carefully extracted and untwisted.

Where are you going to put all this chain when doing this process?

Further, when anchoring more than a few days in thick muddy harbors, people like me know if we don't take everything out and clean the locker we in for rusting mass of steel. I always dreamed of a high pressure salt water pump to wash the chain before lifting anchor.

Where is all this chain going to go?

Finally, there is the marine growth issue. I used to draw up about 20-30 meters, wash in fresh water, and then let it dry in the sun to get all the stuff to fall off. Then the chain needs to go back down.

[pbmaise]

My primary concerns are:
#5 Shaft, propeller, and rudder design.



It's pretty. But sorry this will not work for a cruising sailboat.

#1 I like the fact there is redundancy. However, there is not double the chance of having a host of problems.

#2 The propeller is really fancy! Folding, variable blah blah blah. However, this is not a racing boat. What you are doing is placing a propeller aboard that can't be fixed remotely. Further it is totally unprotected. I found a simple fixed prop perfect for a non-racing sailboat.

#3 The unsupported shaft length is not acceptable. One bump from a small log would damage both the prop that can't be repaired and the shaft which must now be removed. Try that while in the water! At minimum drop a strut and add two cutlass bearings within the strut. The prop should be about 6" from the end of the strut.

#4 Yes I like the tiny short rudder. The rudder on my vessel was almost 8 feet tall. However, if this totally unprotected rudder is lost, and chances are now twice, this vessel may not steer. I am strongly in favor of changing to a rudder that can steer this vessel.

#5 A short daggerboard in front of the shaft will deflect most logs away before they hit the new strut, prop, and rudder. Despite the fact I had just such a dagger board, I still suffered prop damage when I hit something.

[pbmaise]

My secondary concerns are
#6 Excessive vessel weight and rig size.

I would not be giving this much feedback if I thought this project was a total loss as a cruising sailboat. Again, I really love some aspects and think it is possible to toss much of this to convert it to a viable cruising sailboat.

Firstly, stop and think. This is NOT a racing sailboat. To be a cruising sailboat, it only needs to go slowly and safely. It tooks me years to learn this. My last years aboard my vessel were by far the most pleasurable because my tiny little rig would power my vessel no more than about 12 knots at 20 knots beam on. I loved it.

I can find no mention of the mast height. I suspect you are in the 70 foot range. I suggest the 45-50 foot range would be more than adequate to power this vessel under sail around 7 knots.

It will never go to wind under sail with a reduced rig. Perhaps even a 80ft rig would still not power this puppy into the wind. However, it should motor sail at a point of about 30 percent to true wind without too much jib issue. Again, you need to have two points of connection of that jib down to the deck to have any chance of doing both to wind and downwind.

Down in the engine rooms, the specs are 2-200 hp work horses. As much as I don't like to suggest it, I want you to look hard at the weight savings of two much smaller turbo charged diesels. I am thinking along the lines of 2-100 hp Yanmar engines.

Further, I would get rid of both Kohler generators. When the engines are running, you will have enough power to run lights and AC to keep the important areas cool using alternators on the engines. Perhaps you will not cool the vast living area, however, that area can be always be cooled under shore power.

I love it, you love it, but no. Black adds far too much heat load. I tried just a yellow stripe down the center of my vessel and found that even bright yellow added far too much heat to the compartments. Further, yes, people will get burned by the surfaces.

Drop from 24 batteries down to about 4. There is really no need to have that much battery capacity when the engine can provide power.

I would also get rid of a lot of the sound proofing you added. In the cruising sailboat version we can deal with a little noise. Believe it or not, I was always listening to the engine when it was running even when I was sleeping. Kind of like sleeping with my ears open.

Until weight is dropped, everyone who sails aboard this vessel will complain that it hobby horses so much they are sea sick.

[pbmaise]

My secondary concerns are
#7 Number of hull penetrations.

I think I read this vessel had 16 underwater lights costing over a $1 a pop. Well, it is kind of cool to light up under the vessel. However, 1 sounds more than enough to me.

On a cruising sailboat ever hull penetration is a maintenance item and point of failure.

It really is possible to reduce and share raw water intakes to heads etc.

Speaking of water...



Nice but it has to go for a cruising version. It is simply too much weight even when empty. Also a hot tub is not exactly nice to scramble over when setting a jibe preventer.

[pbmaise]

#8 Color and heat load.
Already discussed.

#9 Helm controls.
The unfortunate problems gained by changing to twin engines is how to control the rudders. This is a constant question for catamaran owners especially with two helms. I was so fortunate one rudder, and a continuous shaft with cams to transfer motions wheel to rudder.

Clearly in the same cockpit there is no reason to have two sets of helms side by side. This alone would save many kg.

In a cruising version you need to look at everything and ask if it is really needed. Tons of equipment aboard my own vessel were never used or chucked when they died. I never used a wind direction indicator. I had my face. I never put the log into the water to measure hull speed, actually speed was fine for me. I certainly didn't need a heavy big screen chart plotter. My laptop was fine.

KISS. Eliminate all weight especially weight up high.

This is a very narrow trimaran for the load it is carrying. In addition to the hobby horsing the side-to-side motion will be high owing to having so much weight up high.

Study the glass and feel how much it weighs. I bet you can switch all glass to fiber glass reinforced epoxy with UV filter made by BASF mixed into the resin and cut glass weight by 1/3.

We all know the truth here. We are not fooled into thinking you have created a light weight vessel just because you wasted money on carbon fiber this and that. We can still see all that glass, the weight of all the unneeded generators, batteries etc.

[pbmaise]

An area I missed is the issue of gasoline storage. To use this vessel as a cruising sailboat we need a safe way to access fuel and refill the dinghy. Most of us also won't give up our Honda portable generators. Perhaps there is something built into the very aft floors I don't see. This area would be very wet under sail.

Further, I see the dinghy is stored under the floor which is kind of neat. How big is this compartment under the floor? Is this area pumped dry to reduce weight before sailing and does the motor have to be removed? Where does it stow?

I also haven't mentioned clearance under the aka between the hulls. I can't imagine it is very high. FYI as a point of reference I could easily kayak between hulls of my trimaran without having to duck. Despite how high this clearance was, I still had waves striking this area in heavy seas. Aboard this vessel, I think the owner may soon find the sound insulation added to the engine compartments not relevant compared to the noise these waves will make underway.

One question the owner of the firm answered in a video was about lift under the hull. I don't think the owner understood the question was really whether the vessel had a planing hull.

[pbmaise]

More thoughts on the anchoring problem.

I found a good post showing the owner's suite.



I gather the anchor locker is below the seating area towards the bow. It is easy to see what the designer was going for. If this vessel was used as a cruising sailboat, this compartment will need to be opened on a regular basis to attend to the nasty business of tending to the anchor chain inside.

Rather, than being a tiny compartment under the seat, I recommend walling off the area all the way to the ceiling. The wall with the proper door, would also serve as a crash bulkhead.

I think the problem of untwisting and cleaning mud/marine from 100-150 meters of chain could be accomplished within a large enough anchor locker. Both salt and freshwater wash down as well as negative venting. This would eliminate the need to do it on the deck.

I would not have a problem entering the anchor locker from the owner's suite. In fact it could be a safer access point. I recommend a good camera system to monitor what was going on outside and see the load on the chain. The room needs communication with the bridge.

Recovering the anchor on a big cruising trimaran isn't a simple matter of pushing buttons at the helm. When the wind is up, and you need to lift anchor, even a very good windlass won't be able to overcome the windage of the vessel without engine assist.

The added weight of the full height wall and door would be offset by removing some forward glass especially the pretty but heavy glass along the step.

[Muaddib1116]

Honestly, this boat looks terrible to me, but to each their own.


One thing I find crazy is that you think that a feathering prop is too much of a complication, but you somehow like this boat.