HH 44 by the Wynss

[Cheyne]

We have found that to not be true. We had our Lagoon for 2 years with the props rotating the same way and now 2 years with counter rotating. It make a sizeable difference when motoring. Even bigger difference when docking.

Cheyne

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by SandyLuke

Agreed, the Wynns problem won't be helped by bigger engine (its a prop compromise issue).

Comparing between boats given different weight, hull shape, length, props etc. is a difficult comparison. But I have seen that on a Seawind 1260 (going from 29hp to 40hp) that the bigger engine is more fuel efficient (the 1260 coming in at around 9.5t). Also a lot less noisy and lower vibrations since the engine revs lower at same cruising speed.

At the same weight as my boat, but with a lots less water line, I could see the 30s might be a bit under gunned on the seawind.

[SandyLuke]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

Does anyone know if the Wynns or HH has shared what the displacement of the HH44 actually ended up being. They state its 21,070 pounds or 9.56T, and their President Seth takes pride in mentioning that HH puts this in their build contracts as a guarantee (which they should). Just figured on this would have been information they would share what it really came in at...unless maybe she's a tad heavier than projected. Also, a reason why it's good to be hull #10 or later so the builder has had some time to work stuff out and optimize.

The local HH dealer told me that with the Hybrid option and a highly optioned boat, the weight goas up (couldn't give me an exact number but said over a Ton). The weight numbers quoted is for a base boat, no hybrid, minimum options.

[sw34]

Originally Posted by SandyLuke

The local HH dealer told me that with the Hybrid option and a highly optioned boat, the weight goas up (couldn't give me an exact number but said over a Ton). The weight numbers quoted is for a base boat, no hybrid, minimum options.

The options and configuration sheet has the weight of every option. You see not only final price (based on current rates) but final weight as well. It clearly shows what your heavy options are, and what choices you can make to save weight.

[SandyLuke]

Originally Posted by sw34

The options and configuration sheet has the weight of every option. You see not only final price (based on current rates) but final weight as well. It clearly shows what your heavy options are, and what choices you can make to save weight.

and what do you think the Wynn's specked boat would come out at for $ and weight?

[JustMurph]

The more they show of that boat, the more I like it. It's really really well built and thought out.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

The more they show of that boat, the more I like it. It's really really well built and thought out.

It will be very interesting to see how the solar panels last. I’ve seen recent MaxCruise 44 and Seawind 1370 that had their flexible panels develop heat and stop production within months of being installed.

And the hybrid setup is nice but new and potentially buggy. The same MaxCruise 44 we met in Indonesia was doing without any generation and electric motoring (he has it only on one side, thankfully) until he gets home to Guam and finally can get a tech involved.

I think the boat will be a disappointment regarding sailing. Liveability looks pretty good as long as the fancy systems keep working. Guess I’m a Luddite.

[mbianka]

Originally Posted by fxykty

It will be very interesting to see how the solar panels last. I’ve seen recent MaxCruise 44 and Seawind 1370 that had their flexible panels develop heat and stop production within months of being installed.

And the hybrid setup is nice but new and potentially buggy. The same MaxCruise 44 we met in Indonesia was doing without any generation and electric motoring (he has it only on one side, thankfully) until he gets home to Guam and finally can get a tech involved.

I think the boat will be a disappointment regarding sailing. Liveability looks pretty good as long as the fancy systems keep working. Guess I’m a Luddite.

As for systems it looks like the Wynns took a belt and suspenders approach. I can understand their concern about taking the leap to electric propulsion. I converted my 30 foot monohull to electric propulsion in 2008 at the time I had it with having having a diesel onboard. I liked the idea of an electric auxiliary but, still had a concern about distance so I carried a 50 pound Honda 2000 generator on board for charging and to operate as a poor man's hybrid when needed. I actually use it a lot less than I thought I would over the years and I never wished to have the diesel back onboard. Not sure the Wynns really gained much as they still have two diesels onboard with all the maintenance that goes with them even though they are driving two electric motors. It will be interesting to see if they have any regrets about the amount of diesels they have onboard as time goes by.

[SandyLuke]

Originally Posted by fxykty

It will be very interesting to see how the solar panels last. I’ve seen recent MaxCruise 44 and Seawind 1370 that had their flexible panels develop heat and stop production within months of being installed.

And the hybrid setup is nice but new and potentially buggy. The same MaxCruise 44 we met in Indonesia was doing without any generation and electric motoring (he has it only on one side, thankfully) until he gets home to Guam and finally can get a tech involved.

I think the boat will be a disappointment regarding sailing. Liveability looks pretty good as long as the fancy systems keep working. Guess I’m a Luddite.

I have seen posts of yours that you keep mentioning that the boats (1370 and now HH44) will disappoint in sailing. Not sure how you come to that conclusion. I was at the RR2 launch and we went out on a sail with 24 people on board (plus it was already loaded with RR2 stuff) and we had about 8-9 knots of wind and the boat was sailing at 5knots. That was impressive given the heavily loaded boat. RR2 are new to the boat and sailing cats, so they are on a learning curve and not extracting the best from the boat and being cautious. Other owners who recently received their boats and are experienced cat owners are very happy with their performance.

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by sw34

The options and configuration sheet has the weight of every option. You see not only final price (based on current rates) but final weight as well. It clearly shows what your heavy options are, and what choices you can make to save weight.

Yes, HH prides itself on "guaranteeing" the finished displacement in their build contract. Their President Seth was always very quick to point this out to me when I was shopping, so I have no doubt they will be very forthcoming on actual weight of these boats. Of course it varies by how it's spec'd out, and next to impossible for HH (or any manufacturer) to hit spot on especially on the first few hulls.

This is a simple thing for them to do when splashing each boat, I just wondered why it's not been revealed anywhere? Maybe if they are carrying around a couple extra tons this is the reason they are only able to motor 5kts in ideal conditions. I'm sure they will get it figured out, but now imagine they find themselves on a lee shore with 35kts of wind on their nose and 2M seas and they can't turn to run with it. 5kts is no bueno in real life scenarios you could find yourself in out cruising the world, which they know and why they are working to fix it.

[CaptainPete222]

Increased cost to have a HH44 vs older Leopard 43: $189,800 USD per year. Is it worth it?

My calculations: $80,000 (increase in depreciation) + $90,000 (lost investment income on 1.3M (difference in price between 1.6M HH44 and 300k older Leopard 43)) + $40,000 (increase in insurance premium) - $20,000 (decrease in repair and maintenance costs) - $200 (decrease in fuel costs) = $189,800* USD

Assumption: Decrease in yearly depreciation will be at least offset by increases in maintenance and repair costs.

Exception: Yearly cost for Wynns would be reduced by tax savings and potential for increased revenue generated by having an HH44 vs an older Leopard 43.

*Does not take into account pro rata 10% resale brokerage fee.

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by CaptainPete222

Increased cost to have a HH44 vs older Leopard 43: $189,800 USD per year. Is it worth it?

My calculations: $80,000 (increase in depreciation) + $90,000 (lost investment income on 1.3M (difference in price between 1.6M HH44 and 300k older Leopard 43)) + $40,000 (increase in insurance premium) - $20,000 (decrease in repair and maintenance costs) - $200 (decrease in fuel costs) = $189,800* USD

Assumption: Decrease in yearly depreciation will be at least offset by increases in maintenance and repair costs.

Exception: Yearly cost for Wynns would be reduced by tax savings and potential for increased revenue generated by having an HH44 vs an older Leopard 43.

*Does not take into account pro rata 10% resale brokerage fee.

What you have to also take into account is some peoples budgets/income/savings put them in the "don't give a flying..." on this stuff. The Wynn's got a discount, then add on to this that the price of the HH44 compared to 2 years ago when they signed the contract is up 20%. They don't have depreciation the first couple of years, they actually have probably made $200k of equity. Your lost income assumes they'd paid $1.3M cash which they did not...even if they did there is no such thing as a "guaranteed" return, in 2022 it could have been -$120,000 on that $1.3M

To your point though, if someone is cross shopping an 20 year old production cat against a truly amazing HH44, no it's not worth it to them because it's a stretch financially. The last thing you want out cruising is to be worried about money.

Beyond that, their entire lifestyle is a write-off on their YouTube income. The new boat will only increase their brand. I think HH knocked it out of the park for a cruiser for a liveaboard couple.

[CaptainPete222]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

Maybe if they are carrying around a couple extra tons this is the reason they are only able to motor 5kts in ideal conditions. I'm sure they will get it figured out….

I think that auxiliary system will always only give them 5-5.5 knots max cruising speed due to relative inefficiency of having a dual propulsion and hydrogenation vs a propulsion only prop. I believe that’s what the Space X engineer-friend (who is also buying a HH44 with an identical propulsion system) said during one of their videos.

I’m curious whether the amount of kWh from hydrogeneration that can be used for propulsion will be less than the lost kWh from using a prop that is less efficient for propulsion. My guess is that it would more green to just use the diesels with propulsion-maximizing props for the average cruiser.

[CaptainPete222]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

What you have to also take into account is some peoples budgets/income/savings put them in the "don't give a flying..." on this stuff. The Wynn's got a discount, then add on to this that the price of the HH44 compared to 2 years ago when they signed the contract is up 20%. They don't have depreciation the first couple of years, they actually have probably made $200k of equity. Your lost income assumes they'd paid $1.3M cash which they did not...even if they did there is no such thing as a "guaranteed" return, in 2022 it could have been -$120,000 on that $1.3M

To your point though, if someone is cross shopping an 20 year old production cat against a truly amazing HH44, no it's not worth it to them because it's a stretch financially. The last thing you want out cruising is to be worried about money.

Beyond that, their entire lifestyle is a write-off on their YouTube income. The new boat will only increase their brand. I think HH knocked it out of the park for a cruiser for a liveaboard couple.

You’re assuming that the Wynns’ got a pretty massive discount on their boat to not take a depreciation hit. Maybe, but maybe they just get paid a yearly promotion fee in lieu of a discount. If I owned HH, I’d do it that way so that I could keep a tight leash on what they are saying and to make sure their are doing the promoting I want them to do. There are most certainly many ways that the Wynns will come away with less of a hit on their net income by virtue of the boat/lifestyle being part of their business, tax savings, etc. How much less of a hit than the 189k someone who just buys an HH44 would take (instead of an older, less expensive comparably-sized cat) is at best a guess. I’m fairly confident that if you aren’t the Wynns you’ll see a decrease in your net worth of over $200,000 per year by buying an HH44. If losses like that are not an issue for you, then, as you say, no big deal.

As to your comment about taking out a loan and paying interest vs lost opportunity cost of tying up 1.6M: Interest rates are higher on boats than the 7% fairly conservative return you can expect from investing your money in the stock market and/or real estate.

Btw, actual losses over the last four years by tying up 1M in a boat vs having it in the stock market or real estate were much, much greater. People who sold their homes and put that money into a boat experienced significantly higher lost opportunity costs.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

Maybe if they are carrying around a couple extra tons this is the reason they are only able to motor 5kts in ideal conditions. I'm sure they will get it figured out, but now imagine they find themselves on a lee shore with 35kts of wind on their nose and 2M seas and they can't turn to run with it. 5kts is no bueno in real life scenarios you could find yourself in out cruising the world, which they know and why they are working to fix it.

The issue is that the props are significantly under-pitched to optimise for regen. They've obviously gone quite a bit too far and heavily compromised their propulsion capability.

IMO, having one optimised for regen and one for motoring would be ideal. One 30HP at partial throttle with a properly sized prop will push that at 6 knots.

HH44 vs a 20 year old cat? No one is cross shopping them.