HH 44 by the Wynss

[JustMurph]

You have fairly good forward visibility through the windows in a boat like that. Similar with the down helm position in a Balance.

That said, I still think a bulkhead helm with a raised bimini over you head simply can't be beat. I don't get why that is so out of fashion when it's so practical.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

You have fairly good forward visibility through the windows in a boat like that. Similar with the down helm position in a Balance.

That said, I still think a bulkhead helm with a raised bimini over you head simply can't be beat. I don't get why that is so out of fashion when it's so practical.

Through windows is not good at night nor in the rain nor with forward light. And the helms are so darn low - head is at deck level. Same problems on Seawind with the inner helm position. But at least the newer designs have outboard positions that put you beside the cabin with decent height to see the bows and past them. Catanas have height and still can’t see the other bow.

Agree on the bulkhead helm - we have one and I still standup on the deck to see better, such as when raising the anchor to see the chain. Or traversing a narrow coral-infested channel.

Also thinking about a forward helm, but steering needs to be outside as well as inside.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Through windows is not good at night nor in the rain nor with forward light. And the helms are so darn low - head is at deck level. Same problems on Seawind with the inner helm position. But at least the newer designs have outboard positions that put you beside the cabin with decent height to see the bows and past them. Catanas have height and still can’t see the other bow.

Agree on the bulkhead helm - we have one and I still standup on the deck to see better, such as when raising the anchor to see the chain. Or traversing a narrow coral-infested channel.

Also thinking about a forward helm, but steering needs to be outside as well as inside.

There's not much with a decent bulkhead helm + raised bimini arrangement these days. If all goes to plan I may be in the market a new ~55 footer in the next year or two. It's hard to find anything that ticks all of the boxes.

It seems like the closest option with decent helm visibility and protection would be Balance. I really like the Cure 55, but the helm looks through the cabin. Otherwise you're looking at forward helm options like Windelo. Pretty much none of them are beachable.

I might need to go custom.

[SoFoSON]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

I’m always cautious to say “never”, I agree with today’s technology the hybrid is the correct choice if you want some level of e-propulsion. When I requested from HH the cost to upgrade their HH55 to this same parallel hybrid the cost was $100k. So in this case the payback was 35 years before it would have paid for itself after factoring in fuel and maintenance savings. Basically longer than any of the components / systems would last.

Now if you were to integrate a system yourself like MJ sailing is doing on their catamaran build you could realistically have it make sense. Maybe I’m not considering something in the equation? The big thing is performance cats sail so well, you are motoring much less.

Or just get Max Cruise to do it for you (the boat builder whose components M&J are using). Max Cruise are the ones who started installing the hybrid solution before it was even an option on HH and priced it much more reasonably. MC 44 has similar sailing performance to HH44 and will do laps around Seawind. Some of the finish may be less glamorous than HH but everything is about 30-50% cheaper and they will make it shiny for you if that's what you want. Also, the light wind performance seems to be on par if not better.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by SoFoSON

Or just get Max Cruise to do it for you (the boat builder whose components M&J are using). Max Cruise are the ones who started installing the hybrid solution before it was even an option on HH and priced it much more reasonably. MC 44 has similar sailing performance to HH44 and will do laps around Seawind. Some of the finish may be less glamorous than HH but everything is about 30-50% cheaper and they will make it shiny for you if that's what you want. Also, the light wind performance seems to be on par if not better.

Well, it may depend on the builder. We met a Guam-based guy who was delivering his own MC44 hybrid from Vietnam to Guam via Indonesia. Most of his solar panels had burnt out, neither electric engine’s regeneration was working, and both his diesel engines’ alternators had fried. He ended up buying a petrol generator to complete his delivery home. Apparently was not getting any support from MaxCruise or the builder and of course in a place like Indonesia nobody knows anything about these hybrid systems. YMMV

The Wynns seem to be really happy with their HH as it works the way it should, but boy, there’s a lot of complex systems on that boat that eventually will begin to fail. As well as those glued-down soft panels. I’m not sure that being an early adopter of a hybrid system is worth the risk if you’re going to cruise remotely. Totally different if you stick to areas with good marine technical resources. Time will tell.

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by fxykty

As well as those glued-down soft panels.

We had a couple glue downs on our coach roof. When they eventually failed removing them was easy but the heat had seriously blistered the gelcoat and we had to regel the areas. I still have some on the bimini but that is painted epoxy so hopefully will be less of an issue when the time comes.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by SoFoSON

Or just get Max Cruise to do it for you (the boat builder whose components M&J are using). Max Cruise are the ones who started installing the hybrid solution before it was even an option on HH and priced it much more reasonably. MC 44 has similar sailing performance to HH44 and will do laps around Seawind. Some of the finish may be less glamorous than HH but everything is about 30-50% cheaper and they will make it shiny for you if that's what you want. Also, the light wind performance seems to be on par if not better.

Wonder why not more performance cats simply have separate hydrogens like watt&sea.
And also why non of the hybrid cats actually optimise their roof to mount fixed solar panels like delos is planing that on their alu cat and extend it till the end of the sugar scoops. You can basically use the panel as roof
, the new 700W generation are 2.3m x 1.5m size panels and 3 side by side is 3x700W and 2.3x4.5m roof. Just constuct it the roof is like a frame where you can flush mount these panels into. Suggested that for Plukky on the Odisea too. All have these expensive glued down semi flexible ones which deliver half their rating, die quick and cost a fortune.
Its like that they add all the low efficiency but expensive solutions instead using the highest output ones.

Keep your lightweight small 3 cylinder 40hp yanmar diesel, add a big 48V alternator with a Wakespeed, so its basically a gen too and add 2 watt&sea. Much cheaper then all this hybrid options.
Asia catamaran did that on the stealth 14 that did world circum and worked like a charm.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Wonder why not more performance cats simply have separate hydrogens like watt&sea.
And also why non of the hybrid cats actually optimise their roof to mount fixed solar panels like delos is planing that on their alu cat and extend it till the end of the sugar scoops. You can basically use the panel as roof
, the new 700W generation are 2.3m x 1.5m size panels and 3 side by side is 3x700W and 2.3x4.5m roof. Just constuct it the roof is like a frame where you can flush mount these panels into. Suggested that for Plukky on the Odisea too. All have these expensive glued down semi flexible ones which deliver half their rating, die quick and cost a fortune.
Its like that they add all the low efficiency but expensive solutions instead using the highest output ones.

Keep your lightweight small 3 cylinder 40hp yanmar diesel, add a big 48V alternator with a Wakespeed, so its basically a gen too and add 2 watt&sea. Much cheaper then all this hybrid options.
Asia catamaran did that on the stealth 14 that did world circum and worked like a charm.

If just generating power is the objective, then a large alternator is usually the correct answer. For every hybrid purchaser I've spoken too, it's the electric propulsion they're interested in and the genset side is just the means to that end.

We're adding glass solar panels to the stern of our cabintop, but any place that I COULD need to step when dealing with the mainsail get's flexible panels. If I had the space for a 2m walk way down the center of the cabintop and still add glass panels outside that, I'd be okay with that. I think that's enough working area, but for our boat, flexible panels are the compromise for safely being able to work with the main when offshore.

[Kinkircating]

Two of our friends with "performance" cats have the Watt & Sea hydrogenation and around 3k of fixed glass solar panels. They also have the Integrel high output charging systems, and they never use the hydrogeneration and in retrospect wish they would not have spent the money and lugged it around.

I get the allure of hybrid propulsion, but unless you are doing it yourself like Matt and Jessica are, there just isn't a business case that makes sense. You do it because it's what you want, not because it's saving money on fuel. One day though that script will flip and it will be the norm, and it's the early pioneers that will have made that possible, so my hat's off to them!

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

Two of our friends with "performance" cats have the Watt & Sea hydrogenation and around 3k of fixed glass solar panels. They also have the Integrel high output charging systems, and they never use the hydrogeneration and in retrospect wish they would not have spent the money and lugged it around.

I get the allure of hybrid propulsion, but unless you are doing it yourself like Matt and Jessica are, there just isn't a business case that makes sense. You do it because it's what you want, not because it's saving money on fuel. One day though that script will flip and it will be the norm, and it's the early pioneers that will have made that possible, so my hat's off to them!

And why?
Did the watt&sea not delivering its share of energy when on passage sailing. With 8kn in average one should deliver min. 400W in average.
That on passage is 8.5-9kw per day during sailing.

Or did they just have enough big solar and battery capacity that watt&sea are actually not needed.

I only see that hybrid business case getting positive if you have one hybrid engine and other is electric and a more simple system.
Batteries won't get cheaper then now thanks to EV crises.

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

And why?
Did the watt&sea not delivering its share of energy when on passage sailing. With 8kn in average one should deliver min. 400W in average.
That on passage is 8.5-9kw per day during sailing.

Or did they just have enough big solar and battery capacity that watt&sea are actually not needed.

I only see that hybrid business case getting positive if you have one hybrid engine and other is electric and a more simple system.
Batteries won't get cheaper then now thanks to EV crises.

They said it's because their fixed glass solar panels performed so well that their 30kWh battery bank (at 48V), made it unnecessary and a nuisance that isn't worth the effort.

I agree that "someday" there will be a business case, but not one single manufacturer/boat builder/ or individual has provided me any data that supports it being remotely close today...and I've asked, and of course am welcome to learning more as I too hope to have a hybrid system in the future.

[P-Dub]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Well, it may depend on the builder. We met a Guam-based guy who was delivering his own MC44 hybrid from Vietnam to Guam via Indonesia. Most of his solar panels had burnt out, neither electric engine’s regeneration was working, and both his diesel engines’ alternators had fried. He ended up buying a petrol generator to complete his delivery home. Apparently was not getting any support from MaxCruise or the builder and of course in a place like Indonesia nobody knows anything about these hybrid systems. YMMV

Hey fxykty! Thanks again for your camaraderie, insight, and counsel while stuck in SoWrong! I am compelled to make a few minor corrections to your statement for clarity. I sometimes suffer from recollection issues as well when not personally vested and, it has been a few months.

I had, and still have, unresolved solar issues with one of my three solar panel groups. The two-panel, 740-watt-total array, still produces no more than 70-90 watts in full, midday, unobstructed sun. They are rated for 370 watts each, so production should be closer to 600+ watts under ideal conditions.

The e-drives now regenerate but will not stay in regeneration mode as my props auto-feather without user input. This has been an ongoing and still unresolved issue. When we met, I had one e-drive that was not operable and one beta 35 that would stall out. After much tinkering, disassembly, and reassembly on my own, the e-drive is, sort of, operable but not operating correctly. Also, If I am reading the production values correctly on the monitor, one Hybrid Marine e-motor is generating a bit over 9 kW while in generator mode. As I understand, this should not be possible and is supposed to be limited to 5 kW max production as a generator. It's a mystery and I am still, after over 3 months, waiting to hear from Hybrid Marine or Max on this and other hybrid drive issues.

The issue with the other diesel was narrowed down to a fuel line issue and I was able to get that sorted on my own.

I purchased a portable generator while in Thailand before making the 5437 nautical mile journey to Guam because of the then, ongoing, and, to this day, still unresolved hybrid drive and solar issues. The generator purchase was a piece-of-mind purchase.

We are safely in Guam BTW. I hope both you and D.. are doing well. Drop me a PM!

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

There's not much with a decent bulkhead helm + raised bimini arrangement these days. If all goes to plan I may be in the market a new ~55 footer in the next year or two. It's hard to find anything that ticks all of the boxes.

It seems like the closest option with decent helm visibility and protection would be Balance. I really like the Cure 55, but the helm looks through the cabin. Otherwise you're looking at forward helm options like Windelo. Pretty much none of them are beachable.

I might need to go custom.

I would be very Interested in your mumbay then.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by P-Dub

I had, and still have, unresolved solar issues with one of my three solar panel groups. The two-panel, 740-watt-total array, still produces no more than 70-90 watts in full, midday, unobstructed sun. They are rated for 370 watts each, so production should be closer to 600+ watts under ideal conditions.

Panels in paralell or in series?
First that comes to my mind broken or burned solar cell and busbar in one or both panels and if in series connected results in 2nd to be dragged down.
Same blown diodes in one or 2 pannels. Thats both very common issue on semi flexible panels also with high end ones eg solbian.
Another issue is the MPPT, just take one from the working panels and connect to not working to exclude that with a fuse so you cannot screw that if there is a problem.
They are semi flexible so be happy if 2x370W deliver in best case 500W. Also count that semi-flexible survive how long their warranty lasts.

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

There's not much with a decent bulkhead helm + raised bimini arrangement these days. If all goes to plan I may be in the market a new ~55 footer in the next year or two. It's hard to find anything that ticks all of the boxes.

It seems like the closest option with decent helm visibility and protection would be Balance. I really like the Cure 55, but the helm looks through the cabin. Otherwise you're looking at forward helm options like Windelo. Pretty much none of them are beachable.

I might need to go custom.

The choices are definitely limited out there, I just don't understand not having a raise bulkhead helm position but I'm sure others think the HH44 is just fine. Most of the people buying these have never done an open ocean passage, or navigated the entrance to an atoll, had to stand at the helm during a torrential downpour with the autopilot not working, or dodged crab pots/fishing lines for hours on end.

The new aluminum Odisea 48 catamarans did mimic the Balance helm layout nicely though. Will be interested to see how the first few hulls turn out.