HH 44 by the Wynss

[ozolli]

Originally Posted by adamgoldberg

The website currently says 7970kgs light displacement.

What is the website URL please ?

Edit: Found it
https://odiseacatamarans.com/odc48/

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by adamgoldberg

The website currently says 7970kgs light displacement.

For a 44 bascially a 48 its superlight with all the luxery

[DragonflyBob]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

You cannot compare a 44ft and a 60ft, if then use the HH60 which flies one hull in 8kn of wind.
Rapido is most likely a bit faster but on that performance level i would prefer anytime the comfort and especially the protect helm of the HH60 compared to rapido 60.

You better be very proactive with your weather routing and forecasting and fast/proficient in your reefing technique if your cruising catamaran will fly a hull in 8 knots of wind (trimaran is different based on the platform dihedral). I raced on a Gunboat 66 for 7 years and it was a bit un-nerving when we flew the weather hull more than 2-3 feet. We did not see hull flight happen until about 10-12 knots of wind. We raced with first reef typically at 20-22 knots. In 18-25 knots of wind, that boat would sail at 10-12 knots boatspeed upwind, reach in the high teens, and downwind with the chute we would hit low to mid 20’s easily. I felt OK flying a hull upwind and close reaching but once we started sailing from around 60-110 TWD with maybe a Code Zero and then deeper with a chute, I only wanted to “skim” the weather hull. One of my best memories of racing that boat was the last day of the 2012 Heineken and we had a beam reach in 18-22 knots after rounding Blowing Rock and heading across the Anguilla Channel back to St. Maarten. We were steadily flying the weather hull doing 16-19 knots and just smoking past the biggest mono’s racing in the regatta that year. We were a crew of eight and it was quite a sight rolling over a maxi with 15-20 crew on the rail. We had one scary moment close to the finish when we flew the weather hull WAY too high. That incident resulted in a re-think of the GB66 mainsheet systems to incorporate a better fail safe release for the mainsheet.

FWIW, that Gunboat (Coco De Mer) capsized sailing upwind this past summer racing in the UK and it looked like the sail plan might have been increased. She was already a very powered up machine. Thankfully, everyone OK and last I heard the boat is being re-fitted. If I was cruising on Coco with 4-6 friends, I would put the first reef in the mainsail at 12-14 knots for comfort and ease of mind.

Performance cruising catamarans that fly a hull with moderate ease should not be sailed offshore by sailors coming from monohulls to a boat like this for the first time until they have lots of experience sailing shorter coastal trips (and especially a couple) IMO. The Wynn’s could set themselves up for a scary experience if they don’t prepare themselves properly. I wish the best for them. Beautiful boat.

[CaptainRivet]

Exactly Bob, thats the big downside of the performance machines, you simply think i reef earlier and depower it but thats not all. And having so many things/points to tweak a lot can go wrong too. Especially with a short handed crew.
Think still for performance oriented cruisers the old outremer concept having long water length combined with smaller deckhouse to reduce weight and wind senstivity/windage combined with a medium sized rigg is still the way to go. The waterlength gives you naturally a higher hull speed, the smaller deckhouse less weight and windage means faster and only a medium sized rigg gives you some room error.
Only problem with old outremer is the standing heights.
Eg take a old FP Bahia 46 with 9.5t lightship and modernize it a bit with new reverse bow and optimze the hull. Just a bit better build quility...that would be a reasonably price fast cruising cat doing 200nm etamals. Yes you get less space for the waterlength that maybe is on par with a 40-42ft condo cat but that equals to 60-70sqm appartment and should be more then enough for 2.

[Cheyne]

They already had their first off shore sail. Took the boat from China to Subic Bay in the Philippines. From what I saw on their tracks it was a mixed bag. Between Taiwan and northern Luzon 25 to 30 knots of wind and waves on the beam. Once they got behind Luzon it was all motoring with less than 2 knots of wind for a couple of days. They did have 3 people join them. None from HH. One has a HH44 on order and had sailed with them in the past. Plus another couple with HH experience.

Cheyne

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Cheyne

They already had their first off shore sail. Took the boat from China to Subic Bay in the Philippines. From what I saw on their tracks it was a mixed bag. Between Taiwan and northern Luzon 25 to 30 knots of wind and waves on the beam. Once they got behind Luzon it was all motoring with less than 2 knots of wind for a couple of days. They did have 3 people join them. None from HH. One has a HH44 on order and had sailed with them in the past. Plus another couple with HH experience.

Cheyne

Agree, also watched the review of yachting magazine. 15-18kn 110degress reachingbwith 8-10kn with jib and main...well my 40ft Lavezzi does 7-9kn in this conditions with 9 year dacron old.sails..., when i get my new hydranets i can do for sure do the same.
40 degress close haul 15-18kn it does 7kn with daggerboards, i do 45 with 5.5kn without daggerboards and more slamming but well we talk 1.4mio versus 250k....
And Thats an empty ship from boatshow while mine is loaded with all the worldcircum gear and toys...
Expected better for a HH44 all carbon boat and performance sails...

[HUFFnPUFF]

They did better this time. I saw 12 kts in 20kts of wind on the beam. I also so 9kts with a code 0 with 13 kts of wind. That is 65% of wind speed. Last video had them doing about 50% So a step up for sure. Condo cats would be able to do about 60% of wind with a code 0 and folding props. So... it's better, but marginally.

[CaptainRivet]

Exactly marginal, plus they even aren't fully loaded with all their liveaboard gear, just the essentials to start.
Yes sure the HH44 is an absolute dream cat and performs well and hybrid will work well as with that amount of solar and additional regen its definitely well speced to do its job. Also the noise levels aboard on passage are really low.
And yes the last 5% is always the ones where the price exponentially increases to get that bit.

What i would really like is a side by side comparison on an HH44 with daggerboards and an the Wynns HH44OC with mini keels with fins what is the real world difference especially in how close you can sail and VMG.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by HUFFnPUFF

They did better this time. I saw 12 kts in 20kts of wind on the beam. I also so 9kts with a code 0 with 13 kts of wind. That is 65% of wind speed. Last video had them doing about 50% So a step up for sure. Condo cats would be able to do about 60% of wind with a code 0 and folding props. So... it's better, but marginally.

I’m not a cat owner but I bet that no condo cat will do even close to 60% of wind when it’s 12-13 knots. Maybe when it’s blowing 20. They all seem to motor under 15 knots of breeze.

Owning a performance cruising mono (Tartan 40) I see the same analogy in the mono world. Any heavy mono can fly a ton of sail on a reach and do 8+ knots, but it’s the light air where performance monos and cats really shine. Upwind I’m adding a reef in 15 for comfort and still maintaining speed.

I bet the HH keeps sailing when TWS is 6-8 and condo cats have all been motoring since it dropped to 10-12.
And I have no stake in whether the HH is great or not, but I’m chuckling at all the judging here (jealous?) on the boat before it’s completed a few passages- it hasn’t been pushed yet even. Most cruisers here would agree that it’s not about top speed in strong breeze (anything over 10 gets uncomfortable progressively) but about the ability to maintain speed when it gets light and keep sailing where the HH and other performance cats shine.

[HUFFnPUFF]

I have a condo cat and can do about 50% of wind without folding props or a code 0. I hear folding props will give you about .5 to .75 extra kts and am sure a code 0 will provide me with more power... so I can only hope that I can get 60%. In addition, talking to other condo cat owners, they are seeing about 60%.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by HUFFnPUFF

I have a condo cat and can do about 50% of wind without folding props or a code 0. I hear folding props will give you about .5 to .75 extra kts and am sure a code 0 will provide me with more power... so I can only hope that I can get 60%. In addition, talking to other condo cat owners, they are seeing about 60%.

Interesting. What's the low end wind for 50%? Most boats aren't linear all the way down

[HUFFnPUFF]

When winds are 60 to 75 degrees off the bow. At 6kts, I can do 3.5 kts. At 10kts, I am about 4.5 kts. At 13 kts, I can do about 6kts. At 15 kts, I am doing 7.5 kts. At 20kts, i am doing 8~8.5 kts depending on sea state.

I just did this trip yesterday and was tracking it through the numbers. The island was blocking me in the beginning (6 kts of wind), then it jumped up to 20 kts as I was passing it and settled down to 12-15 for most of the sail.

[HUFFnPUFF]

I suppose I could have improved my performance at times by trimming my sails based on wind speed.... but I was enjoying a lazy sail.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by HUFFnPUFF

When winds are 60 to 75 degrees off the bow. At 6kts, I can do 3.5 kts. At 10kts, I am about 4.5 kts. At 13 kts, I can do about 6kts. At 15 kts, I am doing 7.5 kts. At 20kts, i am doing 8~8.5 kts depending on sea state.

I just did this trip yesterday and was tracking it through the numbers. The island was blocking me in the beginning (6 kts of wind), then it jumped up to 20 kts as I was passing it and settled down to 12-15 for most of the sail.

Really pretty good for a cruising cat in light air, though I will have to say that 60-75 TWA are "hero conditions" and I bet the HH44 will greatly exceed those speeds.

For comparison, My 37 year old 40 foot mono easily gets past 5 knots in 6 knots TWS at 60-75, and to 6.5-7+ knots in 10kts at 60-75. That's with tired sails but with a folding prop.

But, in the heavy stuff (15-20+), particularly off the wind, it's a lot more work to sustain condo cat performance. Hence in breezy areas there is the advantage. (and the reason for the incorrect dogma that cats are always faster than monos)

[CaptainPete222]

I’m curious how the walk on panels will perform. 5 of the 6 (very expensive) panels we used on our boat died in the first year. They were too hot to walk on and heated up the interior, so I was glad to get rid of them. Leaving aside the durability issue, have the problems associated with walk on panels getting very hot been resolved?