HH 44 by the Wynss

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by CaptainPete222

I’m curious how the walk on panels will perform. 5 of the 6 (very expensive) panels we used on our boat died in the first year. They were too hot to walk on and heated up the interior, so I was glad to get rid of them. Leaving aside the durability issue, have the problems associated with walk on panels getting very hot been resolved?

I think we all know how they will work out…not well. When I brought these issues up to HH during our decision making process they had no credible response, just that it will be fine and none of this was anything to worry about. They don’t like questions from engineers is what I found.

[HUFFnPUFF]

Crap, I just added 7 walk on solar panels on my roof.

[bikekite]

I work in the solar industry. I can tell you that "micro fracturing" cells is a real issue. Biggest cause is hail causing invisible damage resulting in millions in lost production and insurance claims.

I hear lots of people claim you can walk on flexible panels. Technically you can but over time, the brittle silicon wafers encapsulated in the plastic will crack unless the underlying surface is super solid (not unlike how a tile floor will crack unless the sub-floor is correct).

We have a SW 1370 on order and skipping the factory flexipanels. Ruby Rose 2 already had to replace some due failure.

BTW- One way you can inspect your panels is to use a thermal camera (a cell phone LW model will work fine) to look for hot or cold spots. Something you might want to have in your toolkit.

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by bikekite

I work in the solar industry. I can tell you that "micro fracturing" cells is a real issue. Biggest cause is hail causing invisible damage resulting in millions in lost production and insurance claims.

I hear lots of people claim you can walk on flexible panels. Technically you can but over time, the brittle silicon wafers encapsulated in the plastic will crack unless the underlying surface is super solid (not unlike how a tile floor will crack unless the sub-floor is correct).

We have a SW 1370 on order and skipping the factory flexipanels. Ruby Rose 2 already had to replace some due failure.

BTW- One way you can inspect your panels is to use a thermal camera (a cell phone LW model will work fine) to look for hot or cold spots. Something you might want to have in your toolkit.

Thanks for chiming in! When I explained this micro cracking issue to Seth at HH amongst the other issues like no airflow underneath to keep them cool & operating efficiently, that they are not going to provide the same output as glass panels, that shading is going to drastically impact output, and their lifespan is 5 years vs 25 years, he simply said that’s not true. Heaven forbid if you ask if there is any data or speak with facts

I’m guessing there are a lot of first time boat buyers without a technical background. Funny thing is Ruby Rose did a video on their solar and I commented asking questions if he’d considered any of these details and of course no response. Both the 1370 and HH44 are great boats but don’t misrepresent them to the unsuspecting consumer.

[Letterkenny]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

Thanks for chiming in! When I explained this micro cracking issue to Seth at HH amongst the other issues like no airflow underneath to keep them cool & operating efficiently, that they are not going to provide the same output as glass panels, that shading is going to drastically impact output, and their lifespan is 5 years vs 25 years, he simply said that’s not true. Heaven forbid if you ask if there is any data or speak with facts

I’m guessing there are a lot of first time boat buyers without a technical background. Funny thing is Ruby Rose did a video on their solar and I commented asking questions if he’d considered any of these details and of course no response. Both the 1370 and HH44 are great boats but don’t misrepresent them to the unsuspecting consumer.

To be fair, these guys aren’t solar experts. They probably should be admitting this and are likely regurgitating what they hear from the manufacturers.

[JustMurph]

There's a good reason Balance only use glass panels on their boats.....and they all have a big air gap behind them!

Re the speeds in the latest vids....they looked good. That's about what I'd expect. Lots of potential there. Good regen performance too.

Re "Performance" mini keels vs dagger boards, Balance have put out some good data comparing the two options on the 526.

[CaptainPete222]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

There's a good reason Balance only use glass panels on their boats.....and they all have a big air gap behind them! .

Assuming they aren’t walk on?

[CaptainPete222]

The issues with walk on panels being too hot to even walk on with bare feet, reduced output due to overheating, transfer of heat to the interior space, and short lifespans have been well reported. I can understand why YouTubers would ignore known problems because solar gets more views. I can also kinda understand why non-YouTubers still put those panels on their boats—lack of better options, they think it makes their boat look cool (guilty!), etc. But I’m not so willing to cut the manufacturers slack for misleading buyers; they know better.

[Cheyne]

We have 8 x 100w Sunpower panels on our saloon roof. I walk on them all the time barefoot. They are going on 5 years old now and produce the same as they did day one. I have never noticed a difference in our saloon temps either. The only panel we have wrecked is a Renogy 175w that we had on bimini hard top. I dropped the boom into it while doing a gybe. Put a gash it it. It worked for another 3 months like that before it died. The Sunpower panels are held down with Sikaflex. We tried putting some corogated platic under a couple panels as a test, but they wouldn't lay flate so we removed it after a year of zero difference.

Cheyne

[CaptainPete222]

Originally Posted by Cheyne

We have 8 x 100w Sunpower panels on our saloon roof. I walk on them all the time barefoot. They are going on 5 years old now and produce the same as they did day one. I have never noticed a difference in our saloon temps either. The only panel we have wrecked is a Renogy 175w that we had on bimini hard top. I dropped the boom into it while doing a gybe. Put a gash it it. It worked for another 3 months like that before it died. The Sunpower panels are held down with Sikaflex. We tried putting some corogated platic under a couple panels as a test, but they wouldn't lay flate so we removed it after a year of zero difference.

Cheyne

We must have different callus thickness on our feet. I didn’t put a thermometer on my eMarvel walk on panels before they died and were removed, but others have done those tests. Very common that temps are upwards of 150 degrees based on what I’ve read. Possibly Sunpower has found a way to have its panels shed heat better than other panels?

Heat transfer to the interior space necessarily happens unless your hard bimini is sectioned off from the saloon and panels are only installed on the hard bimini. Obviously enough airflow through the saloon will remove most of that heat. It’s the light wind days when heat transfer becomes a big problem.

Glad to hear you’ve had better durability with your Sunpower panels than I had with my eMarvels. It would be great if there is more real world data about walk on panel durability, especially given their significant expense and the damage their installation causes. I have a bunch of poorly filled holes in my nonskid where my eMarvels were attached and where the wires were run. Looks like cr*p.

[bikekite]

Sunpower Maxeon flexible panels are probably the one exception out there as far as durability from walking damage. Their cells are copper backed and have a lot more resistance to cracking. That's why Sunpower panels don't have any silver grid lines in the cells.

Bad news is that Sunpower and Maxeon severed their relationship and Sunpower is at the brink of bankruptcy (again). I don't think you can easily get these panels especially in sizes that people want. Bottom line is that flexible panels are such a niche that I would expect technology and price per watt to lag far behind glass.

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by CaptainPete222

Assuming they aren’t walk on?

That's correct they are Maxeon glass panels that cannot (or definitely should not be stepped on). They have a 40-year warranty, the Solbian panels on the HH, Outremer, and Seawind have a 5-year warranty, and that's if they don't see too much force when stepped on and don't overheat from being glued to a coach roof. Each panel should have it's own controller for shading mitigation.

Also, flexible panels efficiency which is already not as good as glass panels plummets if they heat up (like in the places sailboats like to be). They don't mention that in their sales pitch lol. So, a 5,000W roof mounted flexible panel system I'd irresponsibly guestimate has the output of maybe 2,400W of glass panels when operating in the heat of the tropics (my experience tells me it's even less though). There is a reason you see all the boats in the Caribbean with giant arches with glass panels on their sterns.

The huge advantages of flexible especially on performance cats are (1) weight (2) windage (3) cost (4) easy of mounting. If you really care about squeezing out every last knot of boat speed like is HH mantra, that's absolutely the way to go, just don't be fooled when you read or hear some boat has 5k of solar and think that's remotely close to the output you'd get from 5k of glass panels mounted and wired in a manner to maximize efficiency. The devil is in the details.

[Matt Johnson]

Hanging off the back? Sure, I don't care about the walkability of the the panels, but on the cabin top - where I need access to the mainsail - having to tiptoe around glass panels offshore is a no-go for me. And that walkability allows you to cover a lot more of the cabin top with panels - negating a lot of the efficiency issues.

And do most buyers of a technology driven, sporty hybrid $1.5m catamaran really think they'll not upgrade panels when the new hot product is out? They'll be chasing the watts as much as possible.

I just don't love the custom panels and integration that HH has used. It makes fixes/upgrades too difficult in the future.

[Kinkircating]

Originally Posted by Matt Johnson

Hanging off the back? Sure, I don't care about the walkability of the the panels, but on the cabin top - where I need access to the mainsail - having to tiptoe around glass panels offshore is a no-go for me.

Hi there Matt! So, I don't disagree with you on how nice it is just to stick flexible panels down but having now sailed the equivalent of going from Bermuda to Tonga in all types of conditions, I can assure you that your aversion to glass panels mounted on the roof is a non-issue (at least on a 50ish foot cat it's not, different story maybe for smaller cats and definitely monohulls). I think the real with glass panels on the roof is that it right adds a ton of windage and weight.

[Networker]

Originally Posted by cat123

First tour of the HH44 by the Wynns.

When the Wynns first announced they were getting one a few years ago, I immediately emailed the company to get one, but it was a 2-3 year wait. I figured I might be dead by then and wanted to sail NOW, so I passed.

I am enamored with the amount of solar power the boat has, its electric engines with regen on it, combined with aux diesel as a backup; I think that's the perfect off-grid solution. At anchor, it has enough power to run Mabru AirCon almost whenever you want, plus everything else; when moving, the regen is putting in 20-50amps / hour based on what I saw in their last video this weekend, so that plus solar could get you close to 100-120+ amps/hour if there's sun and the sails aren't shading it.

I bet if you use the electric engines for a while, you're hurting as you've got to recharge the battery bank, but that's not the end of the world, and the diesel aux as a backup helps if you really need to keep motoring while the batteries recharge.

You need a cat to pull that off, and you're in the hole for $1.3m for that ability, but for some it's worth it.