HH 44 by the Wynss

[Networker]

Originally Posted by HUFFnPUFF

Crap, I just added 7 walk on solar panels on my roof.

What brand did you get, and what brand does HH use?

I didn't research it too much, but I saw one mono on YouTube with walk-on panels and the ad showed a lady in high heels stepping on it and spilling a martini, but in reality they stepped on it and cracked some of the cells almost the first week in bare feet.

I'm still interested in the concept of walk on panels as long as they're not super dangerous to walk on (i.e., I don't slip on them when wet and go overboard), if they don't break and perform decently compared to another flex solar. Presume they'll need replacing every 3 years, but if I can cover more surface area (in this case the hard bimini), and have that make up for the ineffeciency of flex panels and sail shading, it might be worth it vs bifacial or hard panels in the rear on a solar arch.

[Cheyne]

On our saloon and bimini roofs we can't put fixed panels on. I need to be able to get to the boom and main sail. Now we are never up there for any other reason. The 8 Sunpower panels are the only ones that we haven't swapped out. Our boat is kind of an science experiement. I have swapped battery banks out 1 once so far and will be again when we get back this year to the Epoch 460's we bought. We are also going from a 12v boat to 48v with a small 12v bank. It does come in handy that we have a Solar company. We started with 200w fixed panels from 2008. Then swapped to 410w Maxxon panels two years ago from Sunpower Yachts. Now we have 4 x 580w bifacial panels from a company that wants us to sell their panels to the farms we deal with. This will push our little Lagoon 380 to near 4000w of solar when we are on anchor and 3000w when we are sailing.

[JustMurph]

Originally Posted by CaptainPete222

Assuming they aren’t walk on?

Commercial glass panels shouldn't be walked on, but you can if you need to in a pinch. They won't break. The panels I use are rated at 500kg/m^2. That said, when you do, you do flex them a little and that does lead to micro cracking.

Glass vs flex on a cabin or bimini will depend on the boat and the owner. I used glass on my bimini, as I never need to go up there. I'm tall enough to zip my sail bag from the side deck. That wouldn't work for everyone though!

[HUFFnPUFF]

Originally Posted by Networker

What brand did you get, and what brand does HH use?

I didn't research it too much, but I saw one mono on YouTube with walk-on panels and the ad showed a lady in high heels stepping on it and spilling a martini, but in reality they stepped on it and cracked some of the cells almost the first week in bare feet.

I'm still interested in the concept of walk on panels as long as they're not super dangerous to walk on (i.e., I don't slip on them when wet and go overboard), if they don't break and perform decently compared to another flex solar. Presume they'll need replacing every 3 years, but if I can cover more surface area (in this case the hard bimini), and have that make up for the ineffeciency of flex panels and sail shading, it might be worth it vs bifacial or hard panels in the rear on a solar arch.

SunBeam... I got them at Budget Marine.

[JustMurph]

So, I did find it interesting that their motoring performance seemed quite bad and they said the props are spec'd for regen, rather than optimal motoring performance.

Anyone here know what the props are? Is it a specific type of prop they are using, or is it the sizing that is for regen? I'd imagine you'd be going for something is as large a diameter as possible and a small pitch. That small pitch would be good for regen but limit top end speed under motor. You'd never really load the engines up.

[kaz911]

Originally Posted by Networker

When the Wynns first announced they were getting one a few years ago, I immediately emailed the company to get one, but it was a 2-3 year wait. I figured I might be dead by then and wanted to sail NOW, so I passed.

I am enamored with the amount of solar power the boat has, its electric engines with regen on it, combined with aux diesel as a backup; I think that's the perfect off-grid solution. At anchor, it has enough power to run Mabru AirCon almost whenever you want, plus everything else; when moving, the regen is putting in 20-50amps / hour based on what I saw in their last video this weekend, so that plus solar could get you close to 100-120+ amps/hour if there's sun and the sails aren't shading it.

I bet if you use the electric engines for a while, you're hurting as you've got to recharge the battery bank, but that's not the end of the world, and the diesel aux as a backup helps if you really need to keep motoring while the batteries recharge.

You need a cat to pull that off, and you're in the hole for $1.3m for that ability, but for some it's worth it.

The 2 35hp Beta marine diesels are not backup. They are main propulsion and generators.

I think if you ask the Wynn's in 5 years about engine hours - you will probably get 80/20 ratio at best of diesel vs run on electrical hybrid.

My guess would be closer to 5-10% electric run and rest on the Diesels. And then another 5-30% diesel run as pure "generator"

But the electrics might be great if you want to leave (sneak out of) a harbour at night without disturbing too many around you.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

There's a good reason Balance only use glass panels on their boats.....and they all have a big air gap behind them!

Re the speeds in the latest vids....they looked good. That's about what I'd expect. Lots of potential there. Good regen performance too.

Re "Performance" mini keels vs dagger boards, Balance have put out some good data comparing the two options on the 526.

Does the 526 has winglets too?

[CaptainRivet]

For walk on panels you may try the semi-flexible from offgridtec:
https://www.offgridtec.com/en/offgri...olarpanel.html

NOT the ones they call marine and only the >30V ones!
They have a fibreglass backing and you can bend them up to 18 degrees. Also know several RVs and also 2 boats they have them over 4-7 years now and still doing fine. Also thats what european RV community refers since 3 years as best value for money in flexibel ones. They are semi-flexible like the Maxetons with more backing support. I will also install them in the area of the roof where i need to walk.
Expect them to last 5-7years and the 100W will deliver real 65w not bad for the semi flexible ones.

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by JustMurph

So, I did find it interesting that their motoring performance seemed quite bad and they said the props are spec'd for regen, rather than optimal motoring performance.

Anyone here know what the props are? Is it a specific type of prop they are using, or is it the sizing that is for regen? I'd imagine you'd be going for something is as large a diameter as possible and a small pitch. That small pitch would be good for regen but limit top end speed under motor. You'd never really load the engines up.

The props are from Hydralign out of Australia. No idea what pitch is set. I'm not sure what size HH is using, but Max Cruise is using 18".

We're using Variprop for our system, but since it is based on a higher revving Yanmar 3ym, we're at 15" for our props. The benefit with the Variprop is that it reverse can be independently adjust from fwd. I can give up a bit of reverse thrust to gain more regen without disturbing fwd propulsion... It's a theory and we'll see how that works out.

[JustMurph]

Interesting. The Wynns boat would be an ideal platform for testing two different types of prop. Maybe two different props would be the ideal setup for such a boat. One optimised for motoring, seeing as most cats will usually motor on one engine, while the other is optimised for regen.

5 knot motoring on two engines really does seem like a very big compromise. That thing should be slipping along at 6.5-7 on a single engine and middle revs.

Are you using the same spec of prop on both sides? Do you know the expected max rpm with that prop for the diesel and the electric? I really want to see how this behaves! When is your boat launching?!

[SandyLuke]

What they probably need is a variable pitch propeller (servo propeller) that can be adjusted for regen vs propulsion.

But still, the diesel engines are undersized for that size of boat. Ironically, they will end up using more fuel when motoring which will negate the benefits of electric prolusion in real world scenarios.

In contrast, I have seen data from Seawind 1370 owner (not Ruby Rose) where they measured various engine RPM, speed and fuel consumption (they have the dual 57hp engine option). They measured 0.68 liters/nm cruising at 6.2knots with RPM at 1850 on single engine with overdrive on. They had the boat at 10knots with 2520 RPM on both engines with Overdrive.

I think in a drag race, Wynns vs RR2, RR2 would win by nmiles

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by SandyLuke

What they probably need is a variable pitch propeller (servo propeller) that can be adjusted for regen vs propulsion.

But still, the diesel engines are undersized for that size of boat. Ironically, they will end up using more fuel when motoring which will negate the benefits of electric prolusion in real world scenarios.

In contrast, I have seen data from Seawind 1370 owner (not Ruby Rose) where they measured various engine RPM, speed and fuel consumption (they have the dual 57hp engine option). They measured 0.68 liters/nm cruising at 6.2knots with RPM at 1850 on single engine with overdrive on. They had the boat at 10knots with 2520 RPM on both engines with Overdrive.

I think in a drag race, Wynns vs RR2, RR2 would win by nmiles

Thats wrong, 2x35hp is more then adequate, the outremer 45 also has 2x30hp, mumbay48 and Odyssey 48 are also speced for 2x30hp.

As the Wynns stated all 3 HH44 delivered have different props to find the best compromise. The ones the wynns have i would right away call HH that this is not acceptable motor performance as it will be equally bad for the emotor too means you get better regen but all you gained here are lost and expect even more during propulsion.

A servo or varioprop seems the way to go.
And for the setup well propulsion comes before regen, you can give up a bit performance but just a bit and not more as its primary function is propulsion and not a hydrogen.

[SandyLuke]

Sure, smaller engines are adequate, but a bigger engine will give you better fuel efficiency.

I regularly crew on Seawind 1260 and it comes with 29hp or 40hp option. The boats with 40hp engines consume less fuel under all conditions then the 29hp boats.

Take a read of the below:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/rated...hil-friedman-/

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by SandyLuke

Sure, smaller engines are adequate, but a bigger engine will give you better fuel efficiency.

I regularly crew on Seawind 1260 and it comes with 29hp or 40hp option. The boats with 40hp engines consume less fuel under all conditions then the 29hp boats.

Take a read of the below:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/rated...hil-friedman-/

And around 80-100kg additional weight per engine as you need a bigger saildrive too in sugar scoops weight plus the smaller run in their sweet spot when motoring.

Never heard an outremer owner complain the 30hp is too less. murph can for sure state for his mumbay if he wished he had more?
To your friedman link, the guy misses one major factor and thats losses, an engine running a bit above idle has much more losses (mechanical and thermal) then an engine running in its sweet spot means the losses are minimal on this engine at that spot. thats also how generators are operating geared so it always run in that sweet spot of the engine used for it.
And boat manufacturer, especially the performance cat ones, spec the engine so that one engine in normal condition does (i assume) 6kn at this sweet spot, for heavy condition add the power of 2nd engine running in that sweet spot to achieve that. For them its saving weight, if saildrives this additional weight is located at curcial end of the vessel. Saving 200kg costs the performance cat manufacturer for sure more to compensate then the step up in price installing a 50hp one (for condo its different).

And i know that, my Lavezzi has 2x50hp instead 2x20hp and does WOT 15kn on both engines (installed by former owner a motorboater, bought with 19h). On volvos the combo is 85kg heavier (but allows the maintenance/oilchange of the saildrive from engine room) which i compensated by getting rid of the 4x120AH lead in the engine rooms and putting a 1088AH LFP bank in much closer to center of the cat.
Motorsailing 1300-1500rpm i do with 1l per hour on one engine, there the bigger engine shines plus its hardly noticeable its running. but the 7kn on 1 engine motoring at 1800RPM is the same 3l per hour that is typical for the D2-50 on 44-48ft monos i know from charter and my buddy boat a dufour44 with 12t, yes i am 1kn faster. The 30hp 3 cylinder would do 2200RPM and around 6kn with 2.5-2.8l as other Lavezzi owner told me.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by bikekite

Bad news is that Sunpower and Maxeon severed their relationship and Sunpower is at the brink of bankruptcy (again). I don't think you can easily get these panels especially in sizes that people want. Bottom line is that flexible panels are such a niche that I would expect technology and price per watt to lag far behind glass.

That is a real shame. Other than Solara which are very expensive, about the only flexible panel I would entertain.

Pete