How many cats have flipped ?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by pjr03

Ok, so we are at "sea" with monos vs cats. What would the reactions be to trimarans? Say around 9m long.

Obviously trimarans are three times as bad.

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Ah..... Chile is not for the faint of heart when it comes to eating out....

True dat. My Spanish is pretty good, but I had to check my dictionary when I saw "crudo" on the menu because I wasn't sure if maybe it meant something else in Chile.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by davb

I sailed a 70’ ketch-rigged cat in the Pacific some years ago. My experience suggests two categories:

1. Extreme survival conditions
2. Normal sailing

In the first category, assuming well-designed and constructed boats, I would rather take my chances in a monohull than a multihull.

In the second category, I don’t think it matters as long as the skipper is competent and understands his/her boat. A good multihull skipper knows that the boat must be sailed by the numbers: when the wind and waves are thus and so it’s time to reef. The multihull won’t send signals that she is overcanvassed. The first signal will likely be something breaks. If she is sailing on the edge of disaster already, a gust or a higher wave can capsize her. A monohull, on the other hand, will let you know that she is being pushed too hard by heeling too much.

Large cruising cats are a fairly recent phenomenon. I wouldn’t put too much stock in insurance statistics.

But anyone that has owned or ever sailed a catamaran will know when she's over canvased, or on the limit. It doesn't take heeling (which cats do to a certain extent, and tris even more so) to tell you that.

I reefed mine the other day, the wind was only 15-18knts, but I had a guest onboard and we were already doing 7.5knts. No need to push it. On other occasions I've had full sail up at over 20knts. It just depends. The boat will tell me what she's comfortable with.

[Cayuse51]

As mentioned above, one of the nice things about light cats is you can sail reefed and still go very fast comfortably. While circumnavigating, we regularly would sail with 2 or 3 reefs in the main and a working jib in trade wind conditions of 15 to 25 knots. The boat is moving fast, the loads are lighter, and it is hard to get in trouble with so little sail up if the wind jumps up in a squall or thunderstorm. Just roll up the jib and sail on the main. It is a completely different experience than on our prior heavy monohull where you needed lots of sail and big loads to move the keel and all that displacement. Having said all that, we were careful not get caught in a big breeze with too much main up.

[merrydolphin]

If the question is ultimate storm survival, please research the “Queens Birthday Storm” that took place N of New Zealand in June, 1994. the conclusion there was that all types of boats failed, and......all types of boats made it. In other words. Survival was not favored by any one type of boat. Heavy mono, light mono, multi. Probably as big a variable is captain and crew. How good and how many.

Having sailed tens of thousands of ocean miles in my Kelly Peterson center cockpit 44 of moderate heavy displacement deep draft and long waterline with low profile, I can say that I trust it as much as any cruiser. A friend in a sister ship after crossing the Atlantic and Pacific numerous times. Got into a bad storm of extended duration while coming down the Washington/Oregon coast well off shore. He was knocked down 3 times, mast in the water. His wife broke her arm and he had a concussion. I believe this was primarily due to their age, mental and physical ability/stamina. After that trip and a life time of long distance cruising, they sold the boat. I also know a man that went through a hurricane at sea in an Olson 30 ULDB using a para anchor. His ultra light weight (and incredible seamanship) kept him on top like a cork. Crew is a major factor. I would ship on to a well found well crewed multi in a minute.

[fatherchronica]

In response to merry dolphin I wanted to say that many years ago, I think it was, Cruising World had an article that was interviews with 5 famous cruising couples who all had over 200,000 miles under their keels. Of the 5 couples only 2 had ever been in survival situation and both were along the Pacific Northwest coast of the USA. I have been in stronger winds, but the most extreme weather and seas I ever encountered were mid October a hundred miles West of Neah Bay.

[merrydolphin]

Yes, Fathercronica, no doubt one very nasty stretch of water. Takes a lot of patience for a weather window. ( that can be hard to come by).
Another is south central Caribbean on the way to Panama. Been clobbered there a couple of times. And yes, my crew was my intrepid wife. Did I ever wish that I had more crew? Sure, but not very often.

[Pat Page]

https://www.uscgboating.org/library/...stics-2017.pdf

[thlamers]

We sail a small cruising cat, a 26' Sea Wind 24. This boat has sitting headroom accommodations in the hulls. At anchor a large deck tent provides living space. The boat, as used, is certainly over design weight and has a lot of sail area for its size but is routinely sailed in the mid teens. We have owned it for 33 years and used it in coastal sailing and occasional racing but seldom outside of sheltered areas overnight. It has never flipped and never pitchpoled.

We are cautious but the design also has certain features which keep us upright:

1. Very wide beam for its length; 2/3 as designed.
2. High buoyancy-forward hull design.

3. Twin dihedrial daggerboards resist hull flying and dampen pitch and roll.
4. During races we have separately blown out both a main and jib and buckled a mast but have never lifted a hull. The beam, weight and buoyancy distribution enhance the static stability to the point the rig

can be a safety fuse.

This design was popular in the 1980s in Australia where about 250 were built, and about 60 in the US. Of that number the only capsizes know were attributed to spinnakers. This is very good for something resembling an overgrown Hobie Cat. In addition several offshore voyages of long distance have been made, Seattle to French Polynesia, Florida to Cancun, and across the Bass Strait. Pete Gosss singlehanded the Atlantic during an OSTAR aboard a very similarly dimensioned but lighter Firebird in, I recall, 22 days.


Design is important!

[billdomb]

Originally Posted by David M

I don't think that statistic exists. ...

I know this will stir up controversy but I think monohulls overall have a bit of an advantage in severe wind and ocean swell conditions....

And how often do cruisers actually GET into these very dangerous conditions in the first place?

Hard to come up with decent data, for sure.

[tomfl]

I must be the biggest gutless wonder on CF. I have a Seawind 1000 with stern extension I have sailed extensively and can't imagine how it could capsize. Since I single hand I often sail with the second reef and working jib only on a passage. As others have noted the hit I take in boat speed is hard to notice but the safety factor is obvious.

On the other hand in the winter in settled weather I am flying the screecher, working jib and full main. Once I get the two slots dialed in (based on VMG on the plotter) I can comfortably do 10 knots single handed.

As for feedback from the boat I still can't understand those who say there is little or know feedback from the boat. My go to indication of feedback is once I have dialed in the sheets and where the traveler should be I barely have to touch the wheel; in fact I have been chided for forgetting to set the auto pilot the boat is so well balanced.

Back in the day I sailed on my Dad's (and lots of his friends) monohulls and was taught if you could feel the boat struggling something was wrong; a well sailed boat moved easily and cleanly though the water. A lot of that early sailing was in very light airs where the captain and crew had to be very aware of feedback from the boat (this was before you could look down at the chart plotter, check your VMG, adjust the sails, and check if the VMG got better or worse). Once you get attuned to feed back in light airs (where even monos don't heel) it is much easier to recognize feed back in heavy airs.

And just my personal rant/gripe. If you have not spent at least a full week living and sailing a multihull you really should not be blabbing about that topic.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by tomfl

SNIP

As for feedback from the boat I still can't understand those who say there is little or know feedback from the boat. My go to indication of feedback is once I have dialed in the sheets and where the traveler should be I barely have to touch the wheel; in fact I have been chided for forgetting to set the auto pilot the boat is so well balanced.

SNIP

Vid of me returning to the helm station after a visit below deck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRSXoTdkXjk

[refuge]

Personally I would love to own a catamaran and I’ve looked at a few of them. Especially now that we’re getting older and appreciate the extra space. But deep down my mariner instincts tell me to be cautious. I don’t need statistics. I know a sound vessel at a glance.

I started racing Opties at 8 years old and moved up through the ranks having sailed many catamarans. You really can’t compare catamarans and mono’s. They are completely different beasts. I don’t take sides as I have a deep love for all boats and everything nautical. Yes I even own a motor boat. Lol.

If i were to buy an airplane it would have to have one of those ‘whole airplane parachutes’ that deploy out of the tail. While statistically planes don’t crash that often they still crash. A whole plane chute is a fail safe. I tend to see catamarans the same way. I’ve logged over a million sea miles in my life (yes a million) on every conceivable kind of boat. I trust my instincts and while I might personally (on my own) voyage in a cat, I would never cross an ocean carrying loved ones. That’s just my personal preference. I’d rather be in a stout monohull with a full keel. When it blows 70 knots there’s not much you can do with a cat. I personally know of 3 catamarans that have flipped over at anchor in mere storm force winds. That’s all I need to know and that’s the end of it for me.

But I might charter someone else’s cat for a couple weeks. Just not going to invest my own time into owning something that can’t safely heave to in a Category 1. Just my 2 cents. To each their own.

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by boatman61

True.. A Lagoon I delivered had the recommended reefing guide alongside the helm..

Full sail to 25kts.. and graduations down from that starting with full jib, 1 reef in main.

Needless to say I ignored it and went by boat feel.. in my opinion following that guide puts needless stress on everything.

On a Bali 4.5 I reefed at 20kts because I felt she was overpressed, despite the owners protests.

Step back in amazement.. she maintained 12kts over the ground but slamming virtually disappeared with the lee hull no longer being driven down into the seas..

All I can presume is these so called guides are set in fairly smooth sheltered water close to land where wind speeds cannot build the seas one would get 10nm further out.

But wait, how could the boat go so fast with the sails being so inefficient? After all, the mast was almost vertical, not heeled over 30*! 🤫[emoji2]

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by Saleen411

I've been caught with too much sail up....last time was down wind, hauling a$$ with 34 knot gusts in steep short period waves. Turning into the wind to reef was an interesting experience to say the least.



Any cat sailors reef going DDW?

Personally, we never turn upwind to reef. If you’re overpowered going downwind, you’re going to be WAY overpowered going upwind.