How many cats have flipped ?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

Gday Boatman 61, please dont make incorrect statements than can inproperly influence people. This can be damaging to multis regardless of builder in so many way. See below for recomended sail set up by Lagoon (which is easy to source on the net) for a Lagoon 450


- From 26 to 30 knots: 1 Reef, 75% of the Genoa ; the mainsail traveler comes back to 60 cm to windward of center.
The Genoa traveler remains in place or moves slightly forward but it is adjusted so that the leech forms a propeller, the upper part dumping air out under strong gusts of wind.
- From 30 to 36 knots: 2 Reef, 60% of the Genoa ; the mainsail traveler returns to the 30 cm to windward of center, the boom is slackened to fly 50 cm leeward.
The Genoa traveler is moved slightly forward, the adjustment re- mains the same.

Greg H
Lagoon 440

I dont see it as an incorrect statement.. the report stated 25-30knots so Lagoon specs, and yours would have been 1 reef.. if you reef for gusts.
Mine would have been 2 by then and contemplating a third.. sea conditions matter as well.
But then I am a conservative sailor on mono's and cats.

[geoleo]

My cat "Nacho" flips every morning when he first sees me. He is so cute. He wants his crunchies first thing.

[fivecapes]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

SA/D doesn't give you the stability of the boat. You need to know where the COE of is on those sails above the fulcrum, and the length of the righting arm.

Plus those figures looks wrong unless you've used some kind og weird units. The SA/D of a Lagoon 450 is 21.80

Lagoon 450S
SA/D=21.6

Spirited 380
SA/D=32.5

O35
SA/D=25.4

Not saying SA/D predicts stability, but maybe more likely to find yourself in trouble when things go pear shaped?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Ahh.. but therein lies the rub with cat manufacturers having crazy reefing guidelines for their boats that the inexperienced work to.. with those wind speeds a Lagoon 45's would have said full sail is okay.

Designers issue reefing guidlines with the plans.
The Spirited 380s reeting guidelines are similar to ours, which are, In 25-30kts, 3 reefs and reduced headsail.

[Mr B]

Staying under 10 knots is good enough for me, In any high winds,
So the mainsail is down and tied.
The Genoa is out about a foot or two which gives me between 5 and 10 knots,
If I need to reduce speed any more to keep it under 10 knots, I drop the drive leg into the water to act as a drogue, It also keeps it in a straight line dragging the drive leg,
I need 3 knots of wind to make my boat move, So its not slow,

Going fast in high winds can be dangerous as things can happen faster than you can alter sails to correct any over powering actions by the winds,

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Staying under 10 knots is good enough for me, In any high winds,
So the mainsail is down and tied.
The Genoa is out about a foot or two which gives me between 5 and 10 knots,
If I need to reduce speed any more to keep it under 10 knots, I drop the drive leg into the water to act as a drogue, It also keeps it in a straight line dragging the drive leg,
I need 3 knots of wind to make my boat move, So its not slow,

Going fast in high winds can be dangerous as things can happen faster than you can alter sails to correct any over powering actions by the winds,

Once you start getting up to 20knts the sea state is to **** anyway. At least here in the North Atlantic and in the Med. you get waves every 2 seconds, and deep troughs with white caps everywhere. My crew loved it in 30 knts on the nose, I would have rather stayed in bed.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

Once you start getting up to 20knts the sea state is to **** anyway. At least here in the North Atlantic and in the Med. you get waves every 2 seconds, and deep troughs with white caps everywhere. My crew loved it in 30 knts on the nose, I would have rather stayed in bed.

Im on my own, I dont have a crew to help if the **** hits the fan,

[owly]

Perhaps technology could save the day where human judgment falls short.


There are sheet release systems out there that automatically let go the sheet at a specific angle of heel, but on a cat, where there is little heeling


We use previously unimagined technology daily in our lives, and in sailing. There ae people out there who have never hand steered their boat supposedly..... presumably using the remote on their autopilot for everything. We have autopilots & fluxgate compasses, satellite communication & internet, GPS and chartplotters, AIS & radar, and SSB, depth sounders and fish finders, computers and digital cameras, solar power & battery storage that run refrigerators, etc............... Generally a limitless array of tech toys.



I can imagine strain gauges on the shrouds and stays that feed data into a processor far less sophisticated than the one that runs your car's fuel injection. Strain readings accumulated over time from steady wind and gusts would generate intelligent advice on reefing or hanging on more canvas, even what to do to balance the helm to save on the autopilot. Sailboats of today often resemble spaceships and jetliners more than the sailboats of old.


Catamarans (cruising) are not more prone to capsize than monohulls if sailed with any intelligence at all, but as they do not give the signals a monohull does (heeling), it's much easier to push them beyond their limits. Training would seem to be essential, but like flight training, training alone will not prevent tragedies. The human is a flawed computer..... it can provide a level of judgment outside the box that an actual computer cannot and never will, but it is also subject to emotions, inattention, and other factors that lead to these kinds of incidents.....


H.W.



H.W.

[BigBeakie]

As I understand it, the sea state was very likely to have been awful, with easterly swell against strong westerlies, with gusts up over 40 knots. Very lumpy indeed. If they were on a beam reach heading south, and carrying a bit too much sail for the gusts, and it is a performance cat, then I can imagine why they had both boards down to stabilize the boat getting violently pushed around by the seas.

Putting down both boards in choppy, confused seas does help light weight cats getting knocked around by damping the sideways lurches, BUT, as has been pointed out, the leeward board can be a tripping lever if stability decreases rapidly from the windward beam.

A terrible tragedy for the families, and we all should be cautious of complacency when the seas are challenging, and be very conservative under such conditions.

Now, trying to think of an action plan for these sorts of conditions in such a cat, might it be better to deploy either a drogue and run with the wind, or a para-anchor and stay put until conditions abated?


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

As I understand it, the sea state was very likely to have been awful, with easterly swell against strong westerlies, with gusts up over 40 knots. Very lumpy indeed. If they were on a beam reach heading south, and carrying a bit too much sail for the gusts, and it is a performance cat, then I can imagine why they had both boards down to stabilize the boat getting violently pushed around by the seas.

Putting down both boards in choppy, confused seas does help light weight cats getting knocked around by damping the sideways lurches, BUT, as has been pointed out, the leeward board can be a tripping lever if stability decreases rapidly from the windward beam.

A terrible tragedy for the families, and we all should be cautious of complacency when the seas are challenging, and be very conservative under such conditions.

Now, trying to think of an action plan for these sorts of conditions in such a cat, might it be better to deploy either a drogue and run with the wind, or a para-anchor and stay put until conditions abated?


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

No idea about the conditions nor why both boards were down nor what the sail plan was other than the comments in this thread, so I’m not addressing any of those things.

Not sure if I can generalise to a smaller cat, but our relatively light weight 16.4m cat doesn’t experience sideways lurches as you describe even in breaking waves on the beam. The relatively narrow hulls of our cat provide great tracking, with just a little windward board down to balance the rudders and skegs at the sterns.

Conditions would have to be truly atrocious to justify a drogue or sea anchor for any cat, including performance cruising. Were the conditions really that bad that proper reefing and slowing down wouldn’t manage them?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

As I understand it, the sea state was very likely to have been awful, with easterly swell against strong westerlies, with gusts up over 40 knots. Very lumpy indeed. If they were on a beam reach heading south, and carrying a bit too much sail for the gusts, and it is a performance cat, then I can imagine why they had both boards down to stabilize the boat getting violently pushed around by the seas.

Putting down both boards in choppy, confused seas does help light weight cats getting knocked around by damping the sideways lurches, BUT, as has been pointed out, the leeward board can be a tripping lever if stability decreases rapidly from the windward beam.

A terrible tragedy for the families, and we all should be cautious of complacency when the seas are challenging, and be very conservative under such conditions.

Now, trying to think of an action plan for these sorts of conditions in such a cat, might it be better to deploy either a drogue and run with the wind, or a para-anchor and stay put until conditions abated?


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Putting boards down increases the traction between boat and water. If a boat is being pushed around by the sea, putting boards down will make it worse, not better. I've personally experienced this. In 3-5 m waves from beam on, the ride was significantly less comfortable with just a little board down, compared to no board down.

It was the way the boat lurched to a stop after being pushed sideways. With no board the stop was much more gentle.

People seem to come up with all these weird uses for daggerboards. They're for reducing leeway.

In the conditions described, reducing sail should have been all that was required. 3rd reef or no mainsail, reduced headsail. And boards UP, unless trying to sail to windward, in which case maybe a little board down, although I'd personally accept a little leeway.

The conditions described weren't storm or survival conditions. A drogue or sea anchor shouldn't have been neccessary.

[Shaneesprit]

If your worried by a Patterson designed CAT
Sorry there are no new ones, but Zero have flipped so far 😂
Mine is 25ft long but 17ft wife summer twins.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Shaneesprit

If your worried by a Patterson designed CAT

Sorry there are no new ones, but Zero have flipped so far [emoji23]

Mine is 25ft long but 17ft wife summer twins.

I believe the Heavenly Twins is a Patterson design. Super seaworthy boat for 26’ long but I believe one or two have flipped.

[Franziska]

I can confirm that it's a Pat Patterson design, worked for him many years back.

There are no new designs of him, as he died a few years ago. Still look on the web and you'll find info on some of the great voyages which where done by him and others in his designs.

All multis can flip given enough bad input from weather or people. Only very few are unfortunate to do so though.

[Jeannius]

Originally Posted by Shaneesprit

If your worried by a Patterson designed CAT
Sorry there are no new ones, but Zero have flipped so far 😂
Mine is 25ft long but 17ft wife summer twins.

One Heavenly Twins has definitely gone over. Story here... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-capsizes.html