How to do price negotiations for an elder Trimaran ...

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

My first "Tks" to the wave of feedback and input. As I always appreciate the seriousity of positive impact by CruisersForum members, its very helpfully. Obviously, this topic is led less by a technical procedure, more a mental challenge, under the given circumstances of the market.



What do you mean with "abbreviated survey". This term comes along my sailing road first time. If you don't mind, maybe you can upload a scan of your Cat survey to take a closer look. :-) - What about the fee for a certified surveyer writing such ?
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Attached an example of a Survey of spring 2012 for a "Jim Brown 31 Ft. Trimaran" (SeaRunner). The report includes on page 4 a validation (market value + replacement costs). Such kind I know. - I suppose a detailed report with ultrasonic analysis/humidity check costs around 2,000 US dollars plus extra fees, e.g. slip/dry dock, crane/laying mast for rig inspection etc. ... right ?

Keep going with your feedback. I appreciate it a lot. Very helpfully.

that survey is an absolute JOKE !
Suggest you look at Sample, Example Marine Survey Report for what a real survey looks like.

[Arthurwg]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

Same with Juniper - 100K US and now 100K euros, still hasn't sold the last i looked. What about her sistership Juniper 2? 150K US and has been on the market for years. Top condition i think, but if she, at 54' tri, hasn't sold in years, then these others are WAY overpriced.
jon

I see that Juniper II has sold. I'm reminded that several years ago I was slogging through Buzzards Bay on the way to Newport in my 30ft mono, doing a respectable 4.5 kts, when Juniper came whizzing by and disappeared. It was my first encounter with multihull speed and rather depressing.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Arthurwg

I see that Juniper II has sold. I'm reminded that several years ago I was slogging through Buzzards Bay on the way to Newport in my 30ft mono, doing a respectable 4.5 kts, when Juniper came whizzing by and disappeared. It was my first encounter with multihull speed and rather depressing.

But if it's taking years to sell, it's overpriced or the owner just doesn't want to sell.

A similar analogy is super cars. Incredibly expensive new, people drool over them big time... but with the exception of a few collectible ones, most 10yr old versions can be had dirt cheap because they are very expensive to maintain and horrible for everyday use.

I recall reading Chris White's book and he expounded on the virtues of the boat and while great for performance, it was severely lacking in cruising comfort for the size, an awkward interior layout and expensive to slip or haul out.

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I recall reading Chris White's book and he expounded on the virtues of the boat and while great for performance, it was severely lacking in cruising comfort for the size, an awkward interior layout and expensive to slip or haul out.

The free standing rig as on Juniper 2 was not good to windward as the sails got baggy too soon. Juniper with her modified main mast was a better performer upwind especially. This is discussed by Henk (who sailed Juniper around the world at high latitudes) and Chris in a video they made that you can find on Chris' website. The freestanding masts were great from a safety standpoint as you could just free the sheets but poor performers due to the excessive flex. After an email exchange, i concluded that carbon fiber on the outside of the mast could be the solution, but the cost/difficulty/results ratios were not beneficial imho.

i have spent a lot of time studying these two boats (and lusting for them). As a result, i am curious about your comment about the awkward interior layout because that's exactly what it seemed like from the photos. Have you been aboard personally to visit?

jon

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

i have spent a lot of time studying these two boats (and lusting for them). As a result, i am curious about your comment about the awkward interior layout because that's exactly what it seemed like from the photos. Have you been aboard personally to visit?

jon

No I haven't been on board but looking at the layout and the pictures, you are living in a long narrow tunnel. Much smaller than most similar size monos or multis.

It's really a conflict between desired design requirements.
- 30ft and below and you can find buyers for a purely performance boat who don't care a lot of interior amenities because the price is low and maintaining it isn't excessive (particularly for folding versions).
- By the time you get into the cost of caring and feeding such a large boat, very few people are willing to accept such minimal accommodations for the price.

Then you have the issue, if you want high performance multihull in that size range, a big catamaran can get similar performance while providing better accommodations (assuming you resist overloading it).

It really is a niche boat with very few potential buyers...unless the purchase price is low.

[snoozy814]

Originally Posted by tomfl

That would have been a non starter for me.

I do understand in the rest of your post that you seem happy with the deal even after finding lots of stuff that needed fixing and am not blind to the possibility of finding a gem in the rough. But I think you got lucky.

Yes we did. Part of the reason we bought the boat was that it had a lot of the equipment we were looking for in a long term live aboard cruiser...water maker, solar, generator and inverter, decent refrigeration, interior space, good engine, etc. The radar, AIS, new navigation we put on we would have done with any boat we purchased. Again, with many older boats you'll find that people just leave the old systems on and build over them which we'd expected.

[Arthurwg]

[QUOTE=valhalla360;2936255]But if it's taking years to sell, it's overpriced or the owner just doesn't want to sell.

/QUOTE]

Not to mention that we have no idea of the selling price. But I've been in love with Juniper ever since I saw her featured in Wooden Boat magazine, which was compounded when I saw it sailing fast. I did get aboard Newick's Rogue Wave when it was for sale. Very basic spartan interior but so functional. Years ago, but asking $90,000 at that time.

[longjonsilver]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Then you have the issue, if you want high performance multihull in that size range, a big catamaran can get similar performance while providing better accommodations (assuming you resist overloading it).

Admittedly the berthing and haul-outs are a problem, as is the minimal accomodations for the length.

But what catamaran will match Juniper in performance and cost 100k-150k USD???

jon

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by longjonsilver

Admittedly the berthing and haul-outs are a problem, as is the minimal accomodations for the length.

But what catamaran will match Juniper in performance and cost 100k-150k USD???

jon

Before I bought my Seawind 1000 I looked at lots of boats concentrating on that price range (actually a bigger range).

The C31 was a serious consideration due to superior performance and stable resale value. The C36 was a rather serious consideration but problems with bulkheads detaching from the hull going hard to weather were a problem. The newer C37 seem to have to solved that problem and are a possible option.

But none of these boats come close to the creature comforts on my Seawind; not to mention many of the condomarans which have even superior creature comforts.

The only time I had second thoughts about the Seawind was when I was on an F39. I was quite impressed by the layout; seemed to have reasonable space and creature comforts. The owner was very friendly and I had a long conversation with him.

What impressed most about the F39 was it's speed under sail. But as the owner pointed out when he was exceeding 20 knots it required a well trained crew of five for him to feel comfortable. I suspect this is true for what I will term any performance cruising boat. You need hands on the wheel, and every sheet; and maybe the halyards as well. Not to mention a lookout. Not saying a well laid out boat could not have the crew multi tasking to reduce numbers; but at the cost of safety.

Since I single hand and have all lines lead to the steering stations I can easily single hand the Seawind. No question all the tris mentioned could out sail me by a big margin. I do remember the article by Chris White when he first described a big, light, wood tri with a free standing mast; and thought it was a great boat.

But the realities of cruising are that such a boat is not really suitable for the style of cruising I do; and I suspect what most folks do. I really don't think Juniper would be a cruising boat as much as a boat for making fast passages and then going ashore.

[Training Wheels]

Originally Posted by tomfl

Before I bought my Seawind 1000 I looked at lots of boats concentrating on that price range (actually a bigger range).



The C31 was a serious consideration due to superior performance and stable resale value. The C36 was a rather serious consideration but problems with bulkheads detaching from the hull going hard to weather were a problem. The newer C37 seem to have to solved that problem and are a possible option.



But none of these boats come close to the creature comforts on my Seawind; not to mention many of the condomarans which have even superior creature comforts.



The only time I had second thoughts about the Seawind was when I was on an F39. I was quite impressed by the layout; seemed to have reasonable space and creature comforts. The owner was very friendly and I had a long conversation with him.



What impressed most about the F39 was it's speed under sail. But as the owner pointed out when he was exceeding 20 knots it required a well trained crew of five for him to feel comfortable. I suspect this is true for what I will term any performance cruising boat. You need hands on the wheel, and every sheet; and maybe the halyards as well. Not to mention a lookout. Not saying a well laid out boat could not have the crew multi tasking to reduce numbers; but at the cost of safety.



Since I single hand and have all lines lead to the steering stations I can easily single hand the Seawind. No question all the tris mentioned could out sail me by a big margin. I do remember the article by Chris White when he first described a big, light, wood tri with a free standing mast; and thought it was a great boat.



But the realities of cruising are that such a boat is not really suitable for the style of cruising I do; and I suspect what most folks do. I really don't think Juniper would be a cruising boat as much as a boat for making fast passages and then going ashore.

That is hilarious. I’ll bet Juniper has much more space than your Seawind, and will easily sail 2 to 3 times faster. Easily. Have to get off it after a passage, really? It’s not a big enough platform for you? Yeah, you’re not going to have a washer and dryer, but I bet your Seawind doesn’t have one either.

Also, we cruise with just the 2 of us. Smaller tri than Juniper, but bigger than your F-39. While at more than 14 to 15 knots starts getting my attention, we have hit 20 knots. At night. Pitch black. Not overpowered, just on a good reach. My wife kept asking me if I wanted her to relieve me on watch. I kept telling her to go to bed, I was having too much fun! You don’t have to push it and be on the edge to have respectable speed.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

That is hilarious. I’ll bet Juniper has much more space than your Seawind, and will easily sail 2 to 3 times faster. Easily. Have to get off it after a passage, really? It’s not a big enough platform for you? Yeah, you’re not going to have a washer and dryer, but I bet your Seawind doesn’t have one either.

Also, we cruise with just the 2 of us. Smaller tri than Juniper, but bigger than your F-39. While at more than 14 to 15 knots starts getting my attention, we have hit 20 knots. At night. Pitch black. Not overpowered, just on a good reach. My wife kept asking me if I wanted her to relieve me on watch. I kept telling her to go to bed, I was having too much fun! You don’t have to push it and be on the edge to have respectable speed.

What is funny is peeps posting about things they know nothing about.

No way Juniper goes three times faster than my Seawind unless it can hit 42 knots; check the pix of my odometer if you doubt that. Even 28 knots would be exceptional for a Juniper. While I don't have a washer/dryer I do carry around 100 gallons of water, 30 gallons of fuel, an inflatable on davits with a 9.9 Yamaha, a good solar array with a big house bank, a hookah and dive gear to go with it. Not to mention provisions a fridge in the galley and an Engle under the table in the salon. Carrying that much extra weight on the Juniper would definitely decrease top speed.

While I have no idea what kinda tri you own I have no doubt there are tris that could sail 20 knots single handed; with the caveat that the sea state was good and the wind conditions were trade wind like. But in a nasty seaway with gusty fluky wind single handing would be foolish; especially in the dark.

I take it you have never been on a Seawind, the open salon/cockpit area is huge and has been described as a dance floor. In the Bahamas (or similar tropical temps) most of the time at anchor (and for me sailing) is in the salon since visibility and ventilation is great and the boat balances so well I often never touch the wheel.

Not sure why you took such exception with my post. But your seeming lack of knowledge about what features different boats offer makes me wonder.Odometer - top speed on my Seawind Cruisers & Sailing Photo Gallery

[Training Wheels]

Wow, insulting and presumptuous. Seawinds are fine boats, no need for you to be so insecure in your choice. Gee, and how fast will your boat sail in 3 to 4 knots of wind? I don’t get involved in little [emoji90] fights. Believe what you want to believe, and stick a fork in me, ‘cause I’m done.

[Skip JayR]

Hello, guys ! ... weekend, and I got little bit time to read through this thread I started. Tks so far for all the different input. Many good advices to manage a buying process (and price negotiation).

Can happen, that sometimes discussions drift little bit away from the core/centre question, so I'd like to bring it back onto track.

One of the owners (I am still negotiation) dropped for his Tri the prize 24% (Rec.: We talk about a sum now far under 100K€). Good money the owner is willing to loose. A positive sign, that he is willing to get the boat away. But still, its heavily overpriced in my understanding. As a detailed cost plan I did for a refit/modernisation to a long distance sailing boat (living on board) would require 60-70K€ over next 2-3 years. Another 50% cut by the owner, and the deal might be done.

Lesson to learn, maybe the hardest one (for me): Patiency, patiency, patiency. Maybe its all about this "wizzard word", hm ? - We live in speedy times, with our smart phones we get nearby everything immediately accessible, within seconds or milliseconds. So we might loose the feeling, that "good things need time". - Is the formula so simple ?

I am a very unpatient person. One of my biggest weaknesses. - Try it hard ... challenging for me to learn. Mostly impulsive decisions are linked with paying a high prize to learn (by try and error), right ? "Dreams", "Love" and "passion" can be the driving factor and motivator to overcome a lot of hurdles but can also make also very blind to the risks to fail. Have seen too many widows over decades with an unfinished boat in the back garden the husband died by illness having worked over decades on "his dream".

Just watched a video where a captain and wife turned in U.K. a foamed old Light ship (built 1930) into a modern office. (Rec.: Foam for Buoyancy.) - Took the team more than 2 years. Total crazy project. Could not bring up that kind of energy. Appreciate such "mad people". Fun to watch as Harry Dwyer, the film maker, is a great narrator. Good editing, too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1Qz73_m0_o

Got yesterday another offer from an owner (and builder) "round the corner" (in Northern part of Netherland). Its a Wharram Pahi 42, which was built 25 years ago. Sailed for nearby 1.5 decades in the Carribeans by himself and brought it back 10 years ago to Netherlands. See picture attached. Expected prize idea is around 25-30K€. Mainly paint work to do, so the owner. Waiting for more specifications. - Never sailed on my own a wharram design. Something very different from a Tri by sure. - This Polynesian style is of fascinating look, no doubt about ! - Probably not one of the fastest multihulls, right ? - Can't say if I like it. Maybe a test sailing next weeks will say something more. As said, patiency, patiency, patiency. And the good things will come to you (maybe) without lots of energy to invest.

Enjoy the day. In Europe hopefully today its the last hot day. Having suffered at 40 degrees outside, in the boat still 35°C. Went last days sailing at 08:30 pm till sundown to cool down.

P.S.: About the discussion having started of Juniper II. Yes, J2 is an interesting big boat (55 ft Tri), uniquely designed by Chris White. Not just, because it was sailed single handed around the globe by Netherland's famous sailor Henk de Velde, I like the whole concept. Looks strong to be sailed tough.

I follow this boat since years, just because I like its beautyness and character. Its out of the range of my financial possibilities. It was in the market since long in Florida, offered as a "day sailor" (what a shame for this beauty waiting too long going back to high seas). Then it was sold to a new owner in Sweden, there got a complete refit (around 2012-2013), and again a re-fit at one of Europe's leading ship yards for Multihulls, Rehberger in Amsterdam. it is sold again by a Dutch broker (which is in my city settled). Negotiation prize was around 1/4 of a million Euros so far I remember.
Seems nobody (beside Henk de Velde and Chris White) is really happy with this uniqueness. Feels for me, that its just a question of time when we see this boat again in the market. Hope my prediction will not come true and the new owner is happy with J2. - The 2 mast rig is not for everybody.

In my understanding its a very demanding boat, requires a strong personality with technically excellent sailing skills and physical strength, specifically if the owner uses it for coastal sailing with lots of manoevering.
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... and PLS AVOID A RUDE TONE, ATTACKING or BULLYING PEOPLE. We all like to (and have to learn) from each other.

Pls don't use provocative, judging words in your comments. No need for verbal fights . From experts, greenhorns to wannabees (who also might have the chance to turn into real sailors) everybody is welcome, at least in my threads, I start. I began with sailing more than 40 years ago, but I still don't feel as an expert, and probably never will, as I always will learn from somebody, who is more experienced. I have my strength as sailor, but I also have my weaknesses. That's the way to be a human. So let's have fun and enjoy the beautyness of our passion. :-) - Treat each other with respect, pls. I don't like to "flag" rude people out but I will do so, if it oversteps the "red line" twice and wipe out "negative energies".

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Then you have the issue, if you want high performance multihull in that size range, a big catamaran can get similar performance while providing better accommodations (assuming you resist overloading it).

I went through an interesting transformation during last 15 months. I lived on different boats: 4 months on a 17 meter flat bottom 2 mast ship (alone for me), since then (also during winter) on a small 30 foot monohull (slup rigged). Two very different room and boat concepts.

Parallel I work on big sailing ships, with plenty of space, with up to 30 guests sleeping, on up to 42 2 mast traditional sailing ships. There its more living like on land, with showers, big galleys etc. ... can be very modern, too.

After too long living on land, I became aware that it affected me a lot, in a negative sense. Our brain becomes lazy, our senses become weak. We degenerate to consumers of "comfort".

I do since months lots of single handed sailing. Going out, at wind force and times, where other go into (or stay) in the harbours. I use it to train my sailing skills, get and keep sharp my senses, my awareness, my focus and concentration. One wrong step, it might end deadly (in the worst case) as no help is around.

We humans as species and race, we survived going through thousands and ten thousands of years starving in violence/wars, fighting illnesses, starving of hunger ... steadily a challenge for our ancestors to survive. Nowadays we - in the post-industrialized Western world - live in an extreme comfort zone. But we all know, that its fake, its an illusion, related to the huge damage we create to our planet by consuming too much resources (energy, waste etc. ...)

Reducing to a very simple life style on a boat I see as something very positive, now. In winter I was scared, frankly to say. Temperatures went down to close to 0°C and my boat didnt have sufficient isolation. So I had to become creative to find a solution, and lukcily managed it to keep the room temperature up to 22°C steadily. But I had my fears, as I was no more used as a "land based inhabitant", to think about where to get my resources. Heating systems, electricity whatever, in houses/appartements its steadily available, 24h/7d. Not so on boats.

A human can adapt, its the core ability to survive. We can learn nearby everything to overcome successfully nowadays. Solutions are mostly available, at least knowledge via some few mouse clicks and asking for help via Internet.

Having a simple boat life, like we see it in tendency also with the "Tiny House movement", is something positive I would say. It's demanding, keeps you sharp, mentally, intellectually and physically. So long you compensate it by "healthy food", sports, fitness training (cardio), yoga/meditation etc. ...

I experienced a funny process the boat living on a small 30 footer sets in. It pulls me outside. I don't like to stay anymore so long inside the saloon. Instead there I have plenty of room and doing all the same, as I was used on land based life. I want be in contact with nature, move outside and around, not sitting so long as I was used on land life.

You know the interior design of the 40 ft racing Trimaran A-Capella ? Rebuilt again and again by French guy Charlie Capelle. Its a 39 year old Tri (built 1979 by famous Walter Green). This boat has seen many, many lives (in the real sense). Actually it looks like this ...



A real yellow beauty ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1v0IuDjbRY

Its fun to read the article of 2018 in Yachting World.

Such 40 footers can be tuned also into racing-cruising modus, as we have seen it with the beautiful Trimaran Spirit. A walk-through video shows how it is possible to live as a couple for years on a F40 (Formula 40) racer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzqiv8aEiF0

Its all done very, very smart by an Austrialian/Italian Couple. Well thought through the solutions for a "healthy living". By the way: Spirit is for sale since summer 2018, at a reduced prize around 120KUS$. It waits in Thailand for a new passionate F40 fan. :-)

So long I have some basics I don't need a boat of big comfort. For coastal sailing which is done by most of sailors, I expect only some very essentials for "good living":

- length of bed to sleep healthy with good matraz
- head room for "stand height" saloon, galley and small bathroom to avoid backbone/neck problems
- no leakages to avoid moisture during rain or deck wash while sailing
- good heating system (for winter time)
- good stoven (for daily fresh cooking) and enough storage for healthy food
- cool box to keep milk, vegies, fruits etc. ... available for some days
- water capacity for one week (around 100 litres per person I would say). Small water maker can compensate on Tris lack of space for big tanks
- cold water pump system (without hot water)
- hand pumped flushing toilet
- Solar/wind energy (and hydro generator on faster multihulls) to become independent from landline power for using the electric devices, at least to stay for couple of days/2-weeks away from harbours.

Shower I can use in the marina, same washing mashine + dryer. I don't like fully covers of cockpits or big spray hoods. I wonder a lot how people isolate themselves from nature elements, e.g. rain, wind. Important to have good clothes and a robust healthyness. One protection during stay on anchor or harbour: Sun Sail for enough shaddow and cooling down the boat (which requires on its own a smart combination of openings/hatches/windows for natural ventilation).

In 21st century we don't need big navigation corner anymore as we have been used it in the past. As electronic devices, laptop/tablets can store all data more easily, inclusive book library we can have with us on ebook readers. Mostly navigation part can be done on the saloon table or with tablet and wifi in the cockpit.

Big saloons to socialize with friends to sit together with 6, 8-12 people ? - I have an understanding that this is very important for many people. But Tris tick differently. - Mostly its staying outside in the cockpit, on the nets so my experience. As I am not one of the beer and card playing guys I focus with friends on the boat mainly onto the active sailing part. Life under deck is very reduced. - If we like to have nice come together for an evening, we visit a restaurant or have BBQ on beach. But thats just my personal preferences.

All the mix of priorities, donts and "have toes" bring up the prize a boat represents for me the values of this kind of "life style". That's why I never would be willing to pay for a boat 200,000 Thousand Euros or more. A used one fully equipped in the range of max. 60-80Thousand Euros, with good sailing character, design of safety for offshore/long distance. - For a bigger family with 3 kids it might look differently. On my own privately I am a single/two handed sailor, mostly if not sailing regatas (in bigger teams).

In the world of Trimarans I think, it goes more easy to find the right boat. Because the nature of sailors is identically, nearby. We like to sail fast (or very fast >20 knots). We pay tribute to comfort, being very aware of it. But we don't care about.

Buying a sportive multihull makes it probably more easy to negotiate compared with the world of monohulls, hm ?

[Skip JayR]

Originally Posted by snoozy814

Having gone this route ourselves, all I can say is be careful! We purchased ours after having a friend see her for us as she was down in FL and we live in NY. On the surface all appeared ok. However, the owners didn't want to do a sea trial as they were living on her as their home (wife had had recent back surgery..reason for sale) and they had stuff piled everywhere prepping for their move. Engine did start right up as did the generator, both sounded good (still do).

It was only after their stuff was off the boat that we found the nightmares (some of course to be expected with an older used boat, some not and mis-represented by the previous owners). Every and all systems that had ever been on the boat were still there wiring wise (and often the equipment itself). We literally removed probably 25 5-gallon buckets of old wiring alone. Much of it was not only not bundled but not even capped off...so a seaway could have started a lot of arc welding lol. The steering cables had rotted, the "anchor chain that needed regalvanizing" was a rusted together mess, the windlass wasn't working (needed a new battery), while there were instruments on board (radar, sonar, gps, etc. none were actually working). The inverter needed rebuilding. The dingy sank when my husband-ish stood in it (the transom had separated). One of my personal "favorites" one of the eight, yep, count them, eight sea cocks wasn't closing so their solution was to jam a fat sharpie pen into it! WTF??!!
However, the biggest issue is that the drive system (hydraulic) gets too hot in the warm waters of FL and the drive loses power big time! It got us into a few very scary situations during our sea trial of 50 miles. So we've been re-thinking the drive system (all input welcome). It has two props but just one engine.

On the plus side, with the work we've done so far the survey we got has it $10,500 over purchase price and a new replacement value of $675,000 so we don't consider it a loss in the long run. It's solid as a rock hull wise and in good condition per the survey. But instead of being able to bring it back to NY, it is in the FL Keys and will stay there this year while being re-done to make it more of a coastal cruiser vs. a "dock queen".

If you can get it surveyed, it's well worth it. Ours was $350 and worth every penny. Owners tend to be emotional about their boats and think they're worth more than they are, you can make a lowball offer saying, "well I've come all this way so not to insult you but I'll make an offer that I'd consider". I know the boat we bought was originally listed for $250,000...no where near the selling price we got it for which was less than half that by quite a bit, but it was also after a few years.

Good luck

What a drama, snoozy814. Tks for sharing.

More than thinking about my question, your story brings up another one about the mental aspect: How you brought up all the energy to keep going ? How you did (self-)motivation ?

I suppose I'd got already white hairs by what you have experienced. Would have made me very angry about my self feeling like a fool. - Indeed, sounds like a nightmare for me.

Now, looking back have gone through all these emotional ups and downs with a smile, you can tell cool stories about