How to speed up a Snowgoose?

[Snowgoose35]

After cruising 2500 miles from the UK to the Med this summer I've been a little frustrated by the performance of my Snowgoose 35. She's been consistently faster than the tall rigged 37 Elite we've sailed with for some of the time - and at 3 tonnes lighter she should be but a day sail on an Oceanis 40 the other day which shot up to 8.5 knots in 15 knots true on the beam - where we would make 6.5 - made me envious of the greater performance.

Obviously we will go faster if I lighten the boat, though as a cruising boat only so much is possible - but the simplest way would seem to be to put a bigger rig on her.

For example, we have an 10.5m mast now and I found a new old stock 16m mast that would fit for £1500. Obviously new standing and running rigging on top and fitting and a whole new sail wardrobe on top jumps it up to maybe £8-9000 but would this buy me serious performance or would it buy me an unstable over canvassed boat? Any other ideas gratefully received too...

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Snowgoose35

After cruising 2500 miles from the UK to the Med this summer I've been a little frustrated by the performance of my Snowgoose 35. She's been consistently faster than the tall rigged 37 Elite we've sailed with for some of the time - and at 3 tonnes lighter she should be but a day sail on an Oceanis 40 the other day which shot up to 8.5 knots in 15 knots true on the beam - where we would make 6.5 - made me envious of the greater performance.

Obviously we will go faster if I lighten the boat, though as a cruising boat only so much is possible - but the simplest way would seem to be to put a bigger rig on her.

For example, we have an 10.5m mast now and I found a new old stock 16m mast that would fit for £1500. Obviously new standing and running rigging on top and fitting and a whole new sail wardrobe on top jumps it up to maybe £8-9000 but would this buy me serious performance or would it buy me an unstable over canvassed boat? Any other ideas gratefully received too...

Always leery of adding mast height and canvas. A vessel is designed for what it has.

[boatman61]

You can't make a silk purse outa a pigs ear..
What you are trying to do is improve on her hull speed.. impossible with that nacelle... be content or... sell it and buy a Lagoon 380.

[Southern Star]

Snowgoose, as boatman so colourfully points out, your boat was never intended to be a performance boat and it is not just a matter of sail area. In any event, a .5m increase in the height of the mast will add very little sail area: as the J and E dimensions of the sail plan will remain the same, there will be only a very small increase as the sails narrow towards the masthead. A flat top main on the same mast would add more sail area, but of course, you can't go that route as your rig has backstays.

I would suggest that you enjoy your boat for what she is - a solidly built, safe and seakindly cat with a cutter rig that works well in heavy air. If the performance is completely unacceptable to you, as Boatman points out, the only answer is to purchase another boat.

Brad

[HappyMdRSailor]

In my youth, I built a performance monster engine for a GTI/Golf... She was the fastest thing around until all the extra ponies ripped the unibody frame to shreds... You get the idea...

[Snowgoose35]

Southern Star - the extra height of a 16m rig over 10.5 is (5.5m) 16 feet - quite a lot of extra sail area?

I do understand the limitations of the boat and she already leaves Lagoon 380s and 400s behind under sail but as the 37 Snowgoose had two options of standard rig and tall rig I was hoping that the 35 might benefit in the same way from the taller rig...

[ctl411]

If it's time to replace the rigging anyway sounds like a good time to go for the taller rig. The height increase sounds big though. What is the standard vs. tall rig on the 37?

[a64pilot]

Only one way to find out, your not going to fly a hull are you

[barnakiel]

I would not touch the mast at all.

This is what I would start with:

- make sure the bottom is very very clean,
- get folding props,
- make your boat considerably lighter,
- learn to trim sails well,
- get better sails,

See where this gets you. A bigger boat will go faster. If you can consistently sail @ around 6 knots, you seem to be in your league.

b.

[clockwork orange]

The easiest way to improve performance on any boat is going to be a nice fair, slick, racing bottom, good sails and a serious weight loss program. The good news is that most of this is not overly expensive, the bad news is that you have to have the right attitude and most cruisers don't.
Most cruising boats have horribly rough bottoms, years of bottom paint buildup (heavy and high drag) I see it all the time, a new glass boat will come into the yard for commissioning with a perfect gelcoat bottom, by the time they have sanded it, applied 5 coats of barrier coat and bottom paint with a roller it looks like a freakin sidewalk whereas if it is a racer extra effort is put in and it ends up smoother than a nuns bum.
You need decent sails for whatever rig you have and a reasonable quiver of them, old stretched out sails and just a single headsail choice on a furler, while easy to use rob you of performance. New performance oriented cruising sails make a huge difference.
While you may think you cant reduce weight much you would be wrong. A ruthless attitude in this department will probably pay bigger dividends than anything else you can do and will yield greater bridge deck clearance, less wetted surface etc. I would suggest removing everything from the boat that is not fastened down then evaluate whats left that came from the builder, often times hundreds of pounds can be trimmed out without affecting structure at all, as an example on my Gemini there is a partition that separates the head from the fwd stateroom that is built out of 1/2" crap plywood, properly tabbed in but then it is faced on both sides with 1/4" teak faced plywood that is just fastened on with a minimal amount of screws, sooo, a total of 1" of plywood of which 50% is wasted weight contributing nothing to structure so its gone, the boat is full of stuff like that, my point is there is weight to be saved if you are ruthless, and then as you start reloading your personal stuff, if you don't use or need something, leave it off and if you can replace an item with something lighter, great. Once you adopt this attitude you will be amazed at the performance improvement without resorting to rerigging. Fore and aft trim is another area to address. On cats, because they tend to have a lot of storage aft people fill up the lazzarettes and cockpit lockers and then hang a rib in davits and wonder why they are slow, get some weight out of the back of the bus, on the Gemini we noticed that when one of the crew took his deck chair and went to the foredeck we picked up 1/2 a knot so we put the dinghy on the foredeck, moved a few other heavy items from aft up fwd until the tips of the transoms were just kissing the water and then we could maintain that improvement without a person up there.

Steve.

[rbrentp]

Have a 35 Snowgoose. Sailed her 800 miles from Florida to Texas. Rigging terrible, 500 pounds of old golf cart batteries (8), two Yamaha 25 HP outboards, 70 gallons of gasoline, 200 gallons of water. Plus four people and a crap load of junk. (Just picked up the boat.)

In a 20 knot reach we were making 8 knots. She is now lightened and sits 4 inches higher in the water. Batteries down to two, tanks emptied, etc. Am replacing Yamahas with Honda 15s to get the extra 8 inches of reach and drop 150 pounds in the stern.
Have not been out in her as the rigging was just replaced and waiting on second motor. I believe I will add 2 knots in similar conditions.

The point to this is that weight has a lot of impact, as does fore/aft balance, sails, and all the other things people say. So if your boat sounds less loaded than mine was, look for other factors.
Brent
Cat-a-tonic

[atoll]

Originally Posted by ctl411

If it's time to replace the rigging anyway sounds like a good time to go for the taller rig. The height increase sounds big though. What is the standard vs. tall rig on the 37?

on the snowgoose 37 elite prout the standard is 11.6 meters (38"11/16'ft),and the tall rig is 12.8meters(42ft)

[ctl411]

Originally Posted by atoll

on the snowgoose 37 elite prout the standard is 11.6 meters (38"11/16'ft),and the tall rig is 12.8meters(42ft)

That's what I thought 4-5 feet not 10 plus. I say still go the tall mast route but more inline with a 5 foot or so increase.
Then like others have said, get the junk off the boat, smooth bottom, low drag prop etc.

[Snowgoose35]

Thanks for the replies..

The bottom is very clean having just been scrubbed and jet washed when hauled out in Lisbon for repairs but I wouldn't say its very smooth - can anyone recommend a product that will give a smooth bottom - I plan to haul her in March before heading off round Italy and antifoul so if I grind off 30 years worth of old antifoul what should I put in its place?

I'm going through a serious weight loss program over winter - dropping the spare and stern anchors (both 15kg Bruce) in favour of one Fortress, taking out everything thats not used regularly, not transporting spare fuel around, dumping the life raft, petrol outboard (have a nice light electric one) etc and everything else I can ... BUT

A friend who had a 37 swears by light weight and even changed doors and bunk tops etc from ply to foam core to do so - and says it worked - but is there any way to quantify weight loss against speed? Is it worth going to those extremes - and I could ditch glass windows and ally frames for polycarbonate etc - will I see sensible gains or just fractions of a knot?\
I had planned to ditch the Yanmar diesel and sonic leg in favour of a high thrust outboard (saving 200 kg in the deal) but almost everyone I speak to says not to do it as a high thrust 15 or 25 Yam will never push in to head seas etc the way my 3GM will, so for now its staying ..

The drive leg folds up so no folding props needed.
The sails are new Jeckells cruising sails - made 2013 in dacron - any advantages to be had with sexy composite materials etc?

I had looked at more sail because she does so well under spinnaker - on a 60 mile trip from Sines this summer we set off with around 15 boats (a Snowgoose 37, a Lagoon 400, and a whole raft of monos from about 32 foot to maybe 45) and with the big Spinny pinned to the front cleats dead downwind we made 9 knots all day long in 10-12 apparent and out paced all but one of the boats we left with (most also under spinnaker but a few with wing and wing whites) - my point being she goes well with big canvas. On a reach under whites we do around 5 knots in 10-11 knots true, 6 in 12-14, 7 in 15-18 and over that creep towards 8 knots so if as Barnakiel says I am consistently around 6 knots and so in my league is this really the best I should hope for?

[Boatguy30]

I vote with boatman. If you want performance you need a different boat. That guy is TX has made some good efforts to lighten up, but what happens when he wants to load up for cruising?