Hydraulic Steering

[phuelin]

I am fitting hydrolic steering to my 40 foot granger in leiu of tillers
Have been looking at the helm units and see helm with non return is more expensive than one with no non return
Which do I need for a single steering station and twin rudders.
Thanks ,Phil.

[fxykty]

Non return if you will add a hydraulic autopilot to the circuit. But it deadens the feel for hand steering. No non return will be just fine otherwise and retains full helm feeling of the rudders.

[Tupaia]

Are your rudders connected mechanically or hydraulically?

[phuelin]

Rudders will be connected hydralically

[Tupaia]

Originally Posted by phuelin

Rudders will be connected hydralically

Then I would make the following suggestions, Lock valves on the pump, bypass valves on both the rams, remote on one of the bypass valves so it can be operated from the helm or add a third bypass valve for one rudder near the helm, provide two rudder indicators, if a hydraulic AP is foreseen then place this close to and below the helm pump, include shut off valves and quick release fittings for the AP pump, include bleed nipples on any high points in the pipe runs.


Choose rams with proper wiper seals and use energised seals when replacing main seals. Do not use hard seals.


A variable speed helm pump is a nice feature.


Just my 2ps worth.

[Morph]

I wouldn't use hydraulic at all! I built a steering system using a motor bike sproket, chain and dyneema line connected to the draw bar (connecting both tillers. It was amazing and had fantastic feel through the system.


Of course no use if there is no tie bar and/or if you want more than one wheel--well it can be done it's just a bit more complex.

The upside was that there was never any worry about the rudders going out of alignment nor hydraulic fluid leaking/going everywhere.

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Non return if you will add a hydraulic autopilot to the circuit. But it deadens the feel for hand steering. No non return will be just fine otherwise and retains full helm feeling of the rudders.

if you want a hydraulic autopilot then you've gota have non-return helm. as said, this deadens the feel for the helm but for us that's not a problem. boat spends 99% in auto anyway.

only alternative would be one of those wheel pilot gizmos that attaches to the wheel. personally i don't have a lot of time for them on a boat over 35' of so

cheers,

[Chotu]

This is pretty cool.

What did you do for the auto pilot?

I have a push/pull cable system right now and it’s got too much slop in it. I suspect the slop is due to the very long cable runs.

[alaskanviking]

i have hydrualic steering. i love it and hate it. autopilot and second helm connection is easy. i do not have ANY feeling for the rudder when steering, especially when in reverse. i had to install an indicator guage just so i could back up decently. in forward during low speed/ low steerage its really easy to lose where the rudder is without the indicator. above 3 knots or so i gain some limited feeling but the bow does tent to sweep back and forth a little and requires more input and attention at the wheel. another issue is you cant use a self steering unit with hydrualics, a big power saver.

i am actually thinking of switching the cockpit wheel to cable, while keeping the hydrualic cylinders. then use a remote cable valve to switch to hydrualics, keep the hyderualic steering in the pilothouse for heavy weather and the autopilot.

V/R

Robert

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by alaskanviking

i have hydrualic steering. i love it and hate it. autopilot and second helm connection is easy. i do not have ANY feeling for the rudder when steering, especially when in reverse. i had to install an indicator guage just so i could back up decently. in forward during low speed/ low steerage its really easy to lose where the rudder is without the indicator. above 3 knots or so i gain some limited feeling but the bow does tent to sweep back and forth a little and requires more input and attention at the wheel. another issue is you cant use a self steering unit with hydrualics, a big power saver.

i am actually thinking of switching the cockpit wheel to cable, while keeping the hydrualic cylinders. then use a remote cable valve to switch to hydrualics, keep the hyderualic steering in the pilothouse for heavy weather and the autopilot.

V/R

Robert

Or you can add a second cylinder and have two separate circuits for cockpit and pilot house. The circuit with the hydraulic autopilot will need the non-return valve. The other one can have no non-return valve and will have full rudder feel. This is what we are doing to add tillers for playtime steering on our boat.

But you would not be able to run both at the same time. I expect this would be the same with one cable and one hydraulic.

[Bill O]

Could always get a sail lock valve like this one and place in line to disengage and feel the helm. You will want a helm pump w/no check valves in it to make this set up work.

We have an old school Wagner version of the sailing valve in our hydraulic steering system. It has the "lock" position w/the check valve when using the AP, the "sail" position to have full rudder feed back and full bypass if you need to use the emergency tiller, etc. Works well, but most of the time (99.9%) we use the AP so we keep it in the lock setting.

[alaskanviking]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Or you can add a second cylinder and have two separate circuits for cockpit and pilot house. The circuit with the hydraulic autopilot will need the non-return valve. The other one can have no non-return valve and will have full rudder feel. This is what we are doing to add tillers for playtime steering on our boat.

But you would not be able to run both at the same time. I expect this would be the same with one cable and one hydraulic.

This is why I love this forum. I didn't know you could get full feeling from hydraulics. I actually have two cylinders already. They're connected in parallel. I always thought it was wierd, as even the power boats I work on only have one. I will have to trace the system and find the non return valve. I think it would be really simple to switch the piping over.

Thank you

[alaskanviking]

Been looking more and more on this. The cockpit helm is a regular steering pedestal. The chain is a full loop. Below the chain is on a hydraulic helm pump with a chain cog.

The pilothouse helm is the same setup just shorter distance between the helm axle and pump cog.

Both pumps are big seastar capilano pumps. I looked at the manual and it looks like I can disable the internal lock on these pumps by pulling the check balls. I could then use one of those sail lock valves to lock or in lock as I need.

I have twin seastar hydraulic cylinders. I will have to grab a picture later. I don't think I nessesarily need 2. So taking direction from you all, I change the plumbing so cockpit helm is on one and pilothouse helm and autopilot is on the other. If I use a sail lock for both helms I can lock to use as normal, and when I use autopilot. And unlock when I need feeling.

Am I on the correct direction on this. Not sure how much resistance is going to be felt from the other cylinder and helm pump even if the valve is opened In the other system. Do I also need a valve between the ports of the cylinder or does the sail locking valve essentially do the same thing. Thinking that there needs to be a valve for the pilothouse helm side, otherwise the wheel will spin and have extra unneeded resistance. Where can I get remote versions of these valves, push pull cable type. Been having trouble locating these.

I'm hoping this works, as I can reuse parts and helm pump without a large investment as I would have had to do with switching to mechanical cable steering.