is video practical for view

[owly]

I've kind of fallen in love with Bernd Kohlers KD 860 catamaran. At 28', the length is right for me, as is the internal space. It has a high bridge deck clearance, and a wide stance. I like the flat bottom hulls (not flat forward), and the bridge deck cabin height is low as it should be. Unlike designs by many people, the contour of the cabin is a single streamline curve, unbroken by vertical sides for windows, which adds up to very low windage for it's height. It's an elegant design, but it has one liability, and that is view from the bridge deck cabin. The portlight windows on the sides are at a level to be used while standing in the galley or chartroom, and provide no real visibility from within the saloon, and there are no forward portlights or windows, as there is a bulkhead which separates a forward berth area from the saloon. At least one addition has been built which has ports in this bulkhead, and chops the head room in the berth area so you have forward view, but that turns a nice berth where you can sit up and read, to a laydown and sleep only berth, or at least seems like it would. The portlights in the saloon are let into the overhead, and the view will mostly be upward, so the only real view is aft.
One of the attractive features of a cat is the ability to keep watch in rough weather from on the bridge deck without having to drag on your foulies and go out into the cockpit. Also just being able to sit there and take in the scenery when at anchor. This is lost entirely with the 860, the price for the lovely streamline shape and low windage. The alternative is something like Richard Woods Sagitta, which to me is plain ugly by comparison with it's lumpy broken contour........ No offense intended, it's a superb boat, and Richard made excellent design decisions to achieve his objectives. It's the price of view. The KD though 2 feet shorter also offers 1200 pounds more payload due to it's hull shape, and has a shallower draft (2640 versus 1800). That is HUGELY important to me, though it may not be to you.
Needless to say, I've toyed with solutions, such as chopping the front at the bulkhead for forward view, or even installing an aircraft canopy type blown plexiglass bubble in one berth as a watch keeping area. An ugly bulge though streamlined. Pete Hill installed a round dome in the roof of Oryx where you can stand up and have a looksee, and that may be the best solution. I've thought about installing a large LCD screen and camera(s) so sitting at the saloon table you could look out in any direction, but don't know how reliable this would be at sea, and of course there is the issue of where to locate them... perhaps on top of the dinghy davit? I'm currently viewing this sight on a 27" Samsung monitor that runs on 12 volt or 14 volt DC, and of course draws zero power except when turned on. It would be more than adequate for the job. It's not the same as viewing things in real life, but you have the cockpit for that.........

Thoughts?

[LeeV]

I had started the build process for the Voyager KD122 when a health issue started the deterioration in my hands and I was forced to stop. A friend is nearing the end of his build of the same boat in Virginia. That, and the 860 are my two favorite boats from Bernd. If you've not already done so, look up the youtube videos of the 860s out there.

That being said, I would never modify the boat without asking Bernd. His engineering and design skills far outweigh mine and are more valuable than any addition I would want. His designs are easy to build and not encumbered by a lot of "fru-fru" that we (including me!) have gotten used to seeing on cats.

My opinion is that if his design doesn't work for you, move to another. The alternative is to ask him if a specific design change will work and if he'll draw it for you. If you change the design on your own, it's on you. Bernd is a great guy.

Good luck.

[owly]

Originally Posted by LeeV

I had started the build process for the Voyager KD122 when a health issue started the deterioration in my hands and I was forced to stop. A friend is nearing the end of his build of the same boat in Virginia. That, and the 860 are my two favorite boats from Bernd. If you've not already done so, look up the youtube videos of the 860s out there.

That being said, I would never modify the boat without asking Bernd. His engineering and design skills far outweigh mine and are more valuable than any addition I would want. His designs are easy to build and not encumbered by a lot of "fru-fru" that we (including me!) have gotten used to seeing on cats.

My opinion is that if his design doesn't work for you, move to another. The alternative is to ask him if a specific design change will work and if he'll draw it for you. If you change the design on your own, it's on you. Bernd is a great guy.

Good luck.

I've of course sought out Utubes and everything else I could find. The boat I mentioned with the chopped headroom and forward portlights is on his Utube slide show found here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bv-ath_xmjY

At the 2 minute 42 second point according to the counter in the lower right hand corner. Its in the build phase, and appears to be flat or gently sloped from the forward edge of the wind across the lockers and over the berths. The roofline slopes gently downward, but is chopped off vertical leaving an short vertical panel for ports / windows. There is another partial of this photo on one of Bernd's pages: KD860page2 I've discussed the visibility issue with Bernd, as well as the issue of the anti vortex panels which simply do not work. A very sensitive topic. He's offered two solutions, one is a pair of Luffboards, which are basically like lee boards, except mounted in the tunnel, one on each hull, and fold back if they strike anything, the other, which he seems to prefer is a single centerboard mounted on a pod under the bridge deck. Both are airfoil shapes, I believe NACA 2412 if I recall correctly. I much favor the luff boards from a structural standpoint, not to mention other reasons. He favors the centerboard.
There is no other boat that meets my criteria so closely as the 860. The short over all length equals less boat to maintain. I believe Bernd himself says "pick the boat you think you need and go one size smaller", or something to that effect. As a single hander (mostly), on a low budget, looking for a suitable live aboard world voyager, the KD offers the minimum size that is practical and yet can carry a sufficient load and sail well. I insist on a level of self sufficiency that many people do not, as I have the skills and willingness to do virtually all the maintenance myself. A stable relatively level platform such as a cat is extremely valuable in a number of respects. I like trimarans, but cats make far better use of their space and hulls, and offer closed to double the payload length for length.

H.W.

[owly]

Note that the second link (to Bernd's page) also shows the new pod mounted centerboard in a new image on the far right.

H.W.

[LeeV]

Yep, it sounds like it's the right cat for you, and you're doing all the necessary research. Best of luck!

Here's my favorite!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlROg6j4j_Y

[Thalas]

I admire your affection for this boat, but the ability to control your boat and check your surroundings is being discussed as an inconvenient afterthought rather than a primary concern.

Obviously, none of this matters if you are not sailing the boat small handed or bluewater cruising, but helm position and visibility are two of the main factors that disqualify boats for me. For example, the Catana 47 checks a lot of my boxes regarding a more performance oriented cruising cat. However, those aft helms almost sitting in the sugar scoops look like a weather exposure nightmare for long crossings. And they offer very little protection on weary overnight watches. I prefer the raised helm of FP and Leopard where you have great visibility, insulation from the weather, easy communication with those in the cockpit or salon, etc.

Personally, I would never own a boat where I couldn't see very clearly my surroundings 99% of the time. Yes, we have AIS, radar, windspeed indicators, but you need to be able to do visibility checks while prepping and eating meals, while relaxing, while staying warm and dry in the salon when it's miserable outside.

Just my two cents.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by owly

I've thought about installing a large LCD screen and camera(s) so sitting at the saloon table you could look out in any direction, but don't know how reliable this would be at sea, and of course there is the issue of where to locate them... perhaps on top of the dinghy davit? I'm currently viewing this sight on a 27" Samsung monitor that runs on 12 volt or 14 volt DC, and of course draws zero power except when turned on. It would be more than adequate for the job. It's not the same as viewing things in real life, but you have the cockpit for that.........

Thoughts?

Forget the video cam for watchkeeping. Stability, resolution & sensitivity is not even remotely comparable to your eyes even in perfect conditions.
When bouncing up and down in darkness or bad weather you won't see anything at all.
In really bad weather I'm out there, as I can't see much through windows and our radar & AIS is out at the helm, too.



I like the KD860 and once thought hard about building one (I even bought the full plan) but you hit the same issues that I had with the design: No vision from inside, and no trust in the antivortex panels.
The modification with the vertical windows at the cost of headroom in the berth could at least improve views but not by much and certainly not enough for watch keeping in bad weather.
Bernd dislikes most other changes to his design, but I think this one he can live with. Just ask


But:
In the end I figured that building isn't the right thing for me:
Say that building a KD860 takes 3-4 years after work & weekends and costs 50+k Euro (if buying all new stuff). If you think you can do much cheaper, make a full bill of material down to things like mattress, anchor swivel, battery switch, gas cooker, hoses and seacocks fo the head, etc


An older used cat of similar size (say an FP Maldives 32) can be had for around 40k Euro, for example there is one on Yachtworld now for 41k Euro asking, maybe 30-35k Euro will do.
Maybe you will spend half a year after work / weekends and 15k on a refit.

You'll be 3 years earlier on the water, for similar cost, with little risk, good health and a no nasty divorce in between.
All that in a boat that has a realistic market value close to what you have put into her so there is a valid exit strategy in case you just don't like this lifestyle.



Or if you can't leave earlier you could use these three years and do overtime work to earn additional money and buy a newer / larger boat. Just think what 1000-1500hrs of overtime work are worth.

[owly]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Forget the video cam for watchkeeping. Stability, resolution & sensitivity is not even remotely comparable to your eyes even in perfect conditions.
When bouncing up and down in darkness or bad weather you won't see anything at all.
In really bad weather I'm out there, as I can't see much through windows and our radar & AIS is out at the helm, too.



I like the KD860 and once thought hard about building one (I even bought the full plan) but you hit the same issues that I had with the design: No vision from inside, and no trust in the antivortex panels.
The modification with the vertical windows at the cost of headroom in the berth could at least improve views but not by much and certainly not enough for watch keeping in bad weather.
Bernd dislikes most other changes to his design, but I think this one he can live with. Just ask


But:
In the end I figured that building isn't the right thing for me:
Say that building a KD860 takes 3-4 years after work & weekends and costs 50+k Euro (if buying all new stuff). If you think you can do much cheaper, make a full bill of material down to things like mattress, anchor swivel, battery switch, gas cooker, hoses and seacocks fo the head, etc


An older used cat of similar size (say an FP Maldives 32) can be had for around 40k Euro, for example there is one on Yachtworld now for 41k Euro asking, maybe 30-35k Euro will do.
Maybe you will spend half a year after work / weekends and 15k on a refit.

You'll be 3 years earlier on the water, for similar cost, with little risk, good health and a no nasty divorce in between.
All that in a boat that has a realistic market value close to what you have put into her so there is a valid exit strategy in case you just don't like this lifestyle.



Or if you can't leave earlier you could use these three years and do overtime work to earn additional money and buy a newer / larger boat. Just think what 1000-1500hrs of overtime work are worth.

First off, the KD 860 fills the bill better than anything else I've found out there. Richard Woods Sagitta runs a close second, but in either case there are features that are "less than ideal". The very low windage of the KD 860 in a big deal in a sailing cat. The commercially built cats tend to be quite high, and of course lack the smooth largely unbroken contour the KD has. This is a significant issue on some points of sail, where the windage can be high enough that they simply do not go to windard. The large load carrying capacity for it's size (2600 lbs) is also a significant plus. Inevitably I will be carrying quite a bit of stuff. The low total displacement (6600 lbs) means a smaller rig is needed, and the smaller overall size means less maintenance cost. Every cost goes up as size goes up. Sail and rigging and winch costs, more paint to maintain, more hull to antifoul, higher costs in port
The reality is that monohulls have about the same visibility, and most people are fine with that. You have to go out into the cockpit to see anything on a monohull. With the chopped roofline as shown in one of my earlier posts, actually provides better visibility than most monos, as the ports are at seated viewing height. The total height of the cabin is less than 5'. The KD 860 is designed with three companionways, all of which have sliding hatch covers typical of a sailboat. Any of these opened up provides all around view, though some have one or two, rather than three. This low head room is the consequence of having good bridge deck clearance and low windage. It's a compromise I'm agree with. You can't get something for nothing. Pete Hill's Oryx has a plexiglass or polycarbonate dome in the roof about right for one person to stand up in, and that's a good solution for all around view for sheltered watch keeping. It also has a semi sheltered helm position just outside the cabin where the roofline has been extended aft for shelter.
Voyaging, one seldom is at the helm. Wind vane or tiller pilot is pretty much the norm..........Imagine steering by hand for 3 weeks!! Tiller pilots and wind vanes both can be adjusted remotely, meaning that you can steer the boat without going anywhere near the tiller or wheel. The KD has semi balanced rudders, so helm loads are light, and a servo tab could make them lighter still, nor requiring much of an autohelm.

I had hoped to find one of these on the used market, but they are scarce as hen's teeth, and come dear. I'm aware of build time and cost, and have looked at the bill of materials. It's built almost entirely of Okume plywood, which actually is quite reasonable in cost for marine plywood. The total cost for marine plywood, lumber, epoxy, and cloth is surprisingly reasonable, of course this is just the beginning. After that one has mast rigging and a suit of sails, winches and anchor windlass, ground tackle, instruments, interior stuff, sea hatches and portlights, bilge pumps, wiring, plumbing, batteries, solar panels and charge controllers, and countless details.

I don't think I'm under any illusions about build cost and time, and there is the added complication that I would have to either find a location where I could build and then splash nearby, or build the hulls and beams, and finish the interior of the hulls, then haul the works to a boatyard far away where I could finish the job, which means installing the beams, and building the bridge deck cabin there. It would be far more preferable to just buy the boat used, even if I had to fly to Europe or South Africa and sail it "home". I'm not afraid of taking a saw to an existing boat to make it into what I want.

Most of the commercially built cats in an appropriate size range available in the US are pathetically unsuitable for my use, with their low clearance, and nacells hanging down, full length bridge decks, narrow beam, tall cabins, even flybridges. It's as if Bernd built this boat with me in mind, but missed the mark just a tad. His solution of Leeboards, one on each hull on the inboard side, folding up alongside the hull, solves the problem of non-functional anti vortex panels, and they are easily installed on a finished boat. I'd probably mount one forward and one aft a bit so they could be used for balance by deploying one more than the other. I dislike the pod mounted centerboard.

H.W.

[rabbi]

BTW: For the hulls there is a kit vailable from here:
Wooden Boat Kits, Boat Building & Plywood Suppliers - CKD Boats

I don't know if Bernd has linked this on his homepage.


I agree the cost of the hull is pretty low, I think my BOM came in under 10k Euro for wood, screws & epoxy. But the hull was just 20% of the total cost of the full BOM.

I have seen only one KD860 for sale, it was one of the first few builds and while still underway the builder thought about selling for >100k Euro. I never followed up if he finished the build and sold or maybe just scrapped it.


Have you had a closer look at the FP Maldives design? It has similar lines, with good bridgedeck clearance, no pod, and a very streamlined saloon roof providing seating headroom only.
Clever design feature is a pop-top roof, where the aft section of the saloon roof pops up around 40cm to give better ergonomics at anchor.

See attached pictures

[owly]

Originally Posted by rabbi

BTW: For the hulls there is a kit vailable from here:
Wooden Boat Kits, Boat Building & Plywood Suppliers - CKD Boats

I don't know if Bernd has linked this on his homepage.


I agree the cost of the hull is pretty low, I think my BOM came in under 10k Euro for wood, screws & epoxy. But the hull was just 20% of the total cost of the full BOM.

I have seen only one KD860 for sale, it was one of the first few builds and while still underway the builder thought about selling for >100k Euro. I never followed up if he finished the build and sold or maybe just scrapped it.


Have you had a closer look at the FP Maldives design? It has similar lines, with good bridgedeck clearance, no pod, and a very streamlined saloon roof providing seating headroom only.
Clever design feature is a pop-top roof, where the aft section of the saloon roof pops up around 40cm to give better ergonomics at anchor.

See attached pictures

I did check it out to the extent that I could. There are unfortunately no payload numbers. Displacement is 6614, almost exactly the same as the KD, in a boat 4' longer, constructed presumably of fiberglass..... presumably cored. What that tells me is that the empty weight will be considerably higher than the epoxy ply KD 860, both due to the construction and the extra 4 feet, if it is built to anything like the same strength. It's an attractive boat, but it's really designed for vacation charter, not blue water cruising from everything I can gather. The integrity of the coach roof with the pop top is questionable at best, though it's very appealing. I suspect that in really bad conditions that would be a weak point, and not a good one, as loss of that top exposes the entire interior to the sea. It also has way too much "glass". Nice for lounging in the saloon, but vulnerable at sea. I'm not looking for a boat to puddle around close to shore, but to do world travel and long ocean crossings. This boat really does not fill the bill, attractive as it is to look at. I have other reasons that make structural integrity of the bridge deck and cabin of more importance than it is for most people, but I won't go into that here.........

H.W.

[rabbi]

The Maldives is fit for the barefoot route, and I have seen them in the Caribbean. The pop-top roof and the windows seem to be OK in normal conditions, and I haven't read of one sinking even though they are a few years old now.

But it seems you have something different in mind so maybe not for you.
No clue if the KD860 is really that much better suited, though.