I've sailed a Gunboat..

[djtopper]

Originally Posted by yeloya

I have sailed a 10 years old Catana 58. She had original sails not in good shape and yet we managed to do 10+ kts in 20 kts true, AWA 30-35 degrees without proper trim and not even dealing with dagger boards..

Please, tell me stories. ;-) The 581 and 582 are currently my favorite boats. It's AMAZING that they still sell (used) for seven digits.

In looking at some specs for the newer designs, they are definitely heavier (eg., the new Catana 59). Most of the current line do still seem derivative of the previous generation, which I'll assume is a good thing.

I'd probably start drooling more over Outremers, Gunboats and SIGS if there was a single one available for bareboat charter. But I also understand how insane that would be.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by djtopper

Please, tell me stories. ;-) The 581 and 582 are currently my favorite boats. It's AMAZING that they still sell (used) for seven digits.

In looking at some specs for the newer designs, they are definitely heavier (eg., the new Catana 59). Most of the current line do still seem derivative of the previous generation, which I'll assume is a good thing.

I'd probably start drooling more over Outremers, Gunboats and SIGS if there was a single one available for bareboat charter. But I also understand how insane that would be.

Catana 58 is has very little space for her size. I am 6 ft and cannot approach to the edges of the saloon w/out hitting my head.. The cabins also are very narrow. That's probably why she is so fast
Like every old Catana the boat is very solid and the one we have has a carbon mast..

I'd doubted if you can find any SIG but I know that there are Outremer's and even GB's for charter. This latter costs 25.000 USD per week + expenses

Good luck

Yeloya

[Sand crab]

Or you could buy the first 5X. It was just listed for only $1.87 mill.
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2012...s#.UmfSbPnrzU4

[djtopper]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Catana 58 is has very little space for her size. I am 6 ft and cannot approach to the edges of the saloon w/out hitting my head.. The cabins also are very narrow. That's probably why she is so fast
Like every old Catana the boat is very solid and the one we have has a carbon mast..

I'd doubted if you can find any SIG but I know that there are Outremer's and even GB's for charter. This latter costs 25.000 USD per week + expenses

Damn compromises. When will they bend the laws of physics so we can have a nice comfy boat that sails faster than the true wind speed?

To be serious for just a moment, I do think the industry is wrestling quite hard with this. The 5X I saw in Annapolis was clearly designed to give you as much room as possible without sacrificing performance. I applaud their efforts. Similarly, the new Catana designs seem to be trying very hard to squeeze in some more comfort any way they can. Clearly, Lagoon, FP and Leopard have gone much farther towards the comfort end of the spectrum. But even there, if you look at recent designs, they too are trying to make them even more comfortable than the older models. Head design is a very good metric.

The Outremers and GBs for charter are all crewed AFAIK. I may go that route once of twice, but part of the joy of sailing for me is figuring it all out for myself. Plus I can get drunk at night and shout obscenities naked at the moon without disturbing "proper" folk too much. In fact, I'm thinking of patenting that as a new type of therapy. ;-)

This is part of why the daggerboard boats have infested my brain. Every time I've gone on a sailing holiday with a catamaran I've ALWAYS wished for an extra two or three knots of power. I mean ALWAYS. I trim, I tack, I calculate, sometimes I even run the engines too. It can be quite frustrating. But for whatever reason, I've felt the FPs and Lagoons are just somehow mysteriously held back.

Then I saw the light. Now, I'm hopelessly obsessed with daggerboards.

[smj]

Any amount of room will sacrifice performance . Just have to find your sweet spot.

[downunder]

There is also the McConaghy MC 60 and Tag 60GT in the same space.

[SVNeko]

Its not just daggerboards. Weight and hull shape (wetted surface area) have more to do with it. Daggers will allow you to sail closer to the wind and sometimes mean less drag than keels. But they do indicate a build that is at least trying to optimize speed.

[djtopper]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

Its not just daggerboards. Weight and hull shape (wetted surface area) have more to do with it. Daggers will allow you to sail closer to the wind and sometimes mean less drag than keels. But they do indicate a build that is at least trying to optimize speed.

Right. I'm equating daggerboards with a rounded hull bottom. The latter then requires the former if you want to sail into the wind.

I wish there were more discussions online about hull design specifics. I suspect software to help with that optimization still has room for growth (ie., we still can't model the flow of each and every water particle ... so we try other hacks and aggregations to get as close as we can).

[webejammin]

Originally Posted by djtopper

Right. I'm equating daggerboards with a rounded hull bottom. The latter then requires the former if you want to sail into the wind.

I wish there were more discussions online about hull design specifics. I suspect software to help with that optimization still has room for growth (ie., we still can't model the flow of each and every water particle ... so we try other hacks and aggregations to get as close as we can).

Keep weighting it , I'll read

[vanWell]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

Its not just daggerboards. Weight and hull shape (wetted surface area) have more to do with it. Daggers will allow you to sail closer to the wind and sometimes mean less drag than keels. But they do indicate a build that is at least trying to optimize speed.

There are a few videos on YouTube showing a Gunboat sailing at 20 kts boat speed. There is also a YouTube video of a Catana 90 crossing the Atlantic. In both videos the videographer shows shots of the water flow at the bow(s) and the water flow leaving the transoms (exhaust).
The Gunboat (I think it's an older 66) is also filmed sailing at 6 kts in 5 kts true wind - that tells a huge story right there. Most cruising cats large or small, will be barely moving in 5 kts of true wind. But what tells the biggest story is the respective video of the water flow leaving the transoms. The Gunboat sailing at 20 kts boat speed has a very clean, laminar water flow leaving the transoms. The Catana 90 is doing only 13 kts in 22 kts of wind but significantly the water flow off the transoms is very turbulent, almost boiling. This quantifies to drag. A lot of drag. Both boats are reaching in trade wind conditions with give or take, 20 kts of true wind.
Obviously, the 90ft Catana is a lot heavier but with a LWL of around 90ft and a rig to match, it should more than make up for it. The difference is the lightness, stiffness, hull design, dagger board/rudder form, balance - the video can't lie like manufacturers polars or displacement claims.
The gunboat literally slices through the water with minimal exhaust. Just like you want an aircraft wing or your sails to do - laminar airflow at leading edge, around and exiting the hull form, wing or sail. Yes, many racing cats, tris & even monos achieve this. But the Gunboat is a cruising boat.... They sail like this with water makers, dishwashers, washing machines, gen sets, water toys and diving gear plus a dinghy hanging off the davits. Is it worth 3 mil? I don't know and for me it's a moot point; I have to stick with my second hand L440 for now. It's comfortable and sails pretty well for a heavy, high windage cruising cat with mini keels. I think if you can afford a 3 million dollar boat it will also be a moot point. Carbon is a lot more expensive than glass mat, that's for sure.

I like Catanas, outremers, & many other faster, comfortable (we're cruising after all) sailing cats. But I think what Peter Johnstone and M & M have achieved is remarkable. It will be interesting to see how the new Gunboat designs fare.

I have nothing to do with Gunboat, Peter Johnstone, M & M or anyone affiliated with them. I like the boat, I like his philosophy regarding cat design. That's it. Watch the videos, look at the water flow, look at the wind instruments.... Very telling.