Lagoon 380 - Performance tips

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by mikall63

I was also told that I could never get my L39 to sail within 50 degrees of true wind, but somehow I managed it.

I know it's a different model, but we also put the traveller about a foot and a half to windward - I did not ease the main, but may want to try that to see if I can get some improvement. We weren't going fast, but we were consistent a 4.5 - 5.3 knots. Sea state was around 2-3 foot wind chop.

I'm also very new to sailing and this is our first boat as well, so we have a lot to learn and find this information to be very helpful.

Most often refered to as pinching, you'll find that no matter what your wind instruments are telling you, you'll be getting very poor windward performance because your slipping sideways. Try and work out your VMG and use those numbers to find a good speed for going upwind in your cat. Speed is your friend in a cat.

[Stumble]

It isn't that your boat can't be forced to sail higher than 50 degrees, it's just that doing so will cause you to go much slower, and drift substantially more than if you crack off a few degrees and sail faster. The foils start to work so you slide less, and the sails can really work well. Heck dropping the jib will help you claw to windward, but it's slow.

When people speak about performance to windward they are discussing TWA at a reasonable vmg.

[contrail]

My favorite charter guests are the experienced sailing couples where the guys tell me, early on and with a smile and a wink, " we really wanted to get a monohull so we could really said, but the wives insisted on a cat."

I smile back and immediately know my goal for the week, which is to have them tell me, as they leave, "wow, we had no idea how well this boat would sail....lots of fun in addition to comfort. Loved leaving all those mono's behind and hadn't thought we would be able to do that going upwind. We learned something and will be back."

Then, there was the guy at O'Hare airport who, seeing me reading a multihull magazine, said, " you should have a monohull!" I was too stunned at his ignorance and boldness to tell him I had one of each, and could make an intelligent comparison. I put it down to lots of third hand common "wisdom", of which, I think there is an uncommon amount.

It is absolutely true that you want to keep a cat moving so the keels work (true of any sailboat, actually, but a bit more so on a cat), but it's also true that this can often be done on a much closer AWA than many appreciate.

[Stumble]

Contrail,

I have a cat as well. But mine sails upwind at about 30 degrees to the AWA. I have zero doubts about how well a cat can point. But the lagoon 380 isn't a high pointing boat, about 50 TWA is where it maximized vmg. My monohull is also slow on a beat, v,g maxes at about 45 degrees TWA . So not that far off.

[robert sailor]

I'm not sure what you mean in your last sentence? Monos have a variety of different degrees they can sail upwind. Some under 24 degrees and some closer to 50 degrees. So what would I appreciate other than the difference in pointing ability in a mono depends on design, all else being equal. We are talking about a Lagoon going upwind and let's not kid ourselves, this boat is not known for its great windward ability but I do know many cats that go upwind very well when compared to a Lagoon.

[Jamjar]

Thanks to all for the comments, they are very helpful indeed especially the sail trim tips!

Much appreciated!!

[Greg H]

I live in west central Florida and have owned a lagoon 380 for about two and a half years. We have sailed it to the dry tortugas, to the keys, then to Bimini and the Berry islands. We sail the boat and don't use it as a motor boat with sails. We also do a lot of day sailing. Every time I sail the boat I learn something and consider myself in a learning mode. With winds over 10 knots the boat will point at 40 degrees at about about half wind speed with the sails in tight. I can even point up to 35 degrees with a slight drop in speed. Again I'm not an experienced sailor with a racing background. I think it's a great boat.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

Basically they sail upwind poorly. If you find an experienced sailor that owns a 380 I will eat my hat! If it's upwind you motor.

Look at the posts below and start eating your hat:

Originally Posted by Polux

Looking at the ARC+ again, we will see that the Shipman 63 is already in Cabo Verde, the X612 not far and that, at some distance, the new Fountain Pajot victoria 67 is out-sailing a Catana 472 and being outsailed by an old Swan 651.

Further back, on another group the Lagoon 38 sails alongside with a Azuree 46, an Oyster 575 and a Baltic 52.

Further back follows a Halberg Rassy 54 and then after, some curious couples, sailing near by: A southerly 49 (Distant shores) with a Catana 582, and a Leopard 44; a bit back, a Leopard 48 with a Sun Odyssey 49. They are all outsailing clearly another Fountain Pajot victoria 67, a Fountain Pajot Sanya 57 and a Lagoon 52.

The Lagoon 38 skipped by Lars continue to be the best sailed boat in all the fleet and is 1st in compensated overall.

Originally Posted by Polux

And Lars and his Lagoon 38 have just arrived at Cabo Verde. On the lighter winds he was overtaken by all the boats of the group he was sailing with that arrived with this order Oyster 575/Azuree 46 and Baltic 52, but the performance of the crew of the Lagoon 38 was awesome, the best in all the fleet.

Lars has a blog and facebook. Maybe he posts there some photos on arrival and share some impressions about the crossing:

https://www.facebook.com/lars.oudrup
Logbog Havhunden 6.-11.9.2015 | Lise Gerdes

We will know soon about the hours of engine use for each of these and other boats. I would not be surprised if the Lagoon was among the ones that used less the engine.

Almost arriving are two other boats, a Fountain Pajot Victoria 67 and a Halberg Rassy 54. Then at some distance comes a group of 4 cats and three monohulls: a Fountain Pajot Sanya 57, a Catana 582, a Leopard 44, a Leopard 48, a Southerly 49, a Sun Odyssey 49 and a Oyster 54.

Among the slower boats, at the end of the fleet we can find some old monohull heavy designs, some small boats but also some cats.

To the OP: Lars race frequently his Lagoon 380 and I am quite sure the boat is optimized for sailing. Obviously it is a very experienced sailor and he posts occasionally on this forum under the avatar of Django 37. If I was you I would change some emails with him about performance tips. Here a post from him regarding the way he sailed the ARC:

Originally Posted by django37

When the squalls were on the horizon, we used his: Gennaker poled to windward with the long (22') pole, genoa furled a bit to leward, and full mainsail. 95% were sailed with the autopilot on 165 dgr. TWA. The planning was to gybe at the right moment to get the best course to the finish from the squalls. Neither we, El Gato nor the Lagoon 400 Vaares had engine hours on the last leg.

Don't listen to the ones that say that a lagoon cannot go upwind. It can, not as fast as most modern monohulls, but probably as fast as most old full keel ones. I have seen Lagoons going upwind successfully in relatively difficult conditions.

For what i can tell and from what I see, going upwind has more to do with the sailor than with the boat. Plenty monohulls and multihulls go normally on engine upwind.

Obviously not all boats can go as well upwind but that is not really the point, since most can, on "normal" conditions. What one can call normal may also vary with the boat in question but as I have said, I have seen Lagoons going upwind on conditions most of the sailing boats around were motoring.

[jbinbi]

What I have found out in winds up to 25kt true:

50 deg good way to sail, good vmg as well

45 deg, better to push up to 47, but no problems

40 deg, works, but not well for vmg.

If you are getting a 380 to try to keep up with a j boat close hauled, this is not the right purchase (even on my hunter and beneteau I couldn't keep up with a j boat;-)

[django37]

In most conditions the best TWA upwind is 50'. You can point higher, but I dont. The L 380 sails well to windward, because she has shorter and deeper fin keels than most other Cruising cats. A squaretop mainsail is important in light winds. I never have the mainsail traveller to windward, going upwind, I lock it midships.

[admiralslater]

I just installed a chart plotter on our Outremer ,it keeps the tracks so you can where the boat was going no matter how close to the wind you were pointing . I f you have on of these give it a try by either making notes or going back and sailing between to fix points with different angles and trims . Unless crawling of a lee shore vmg is king

[catsketcher]

I haven't sailed a Lagoon so I will keep my advice generic.

I like to use the concept of gears when sailing. It is especially useful in monos but also helps sailing cats as well.

- First gear - Acceleration gear - In this situation the boat needs more speed. Sheets eased moderately. The leeches of the main and jib are curved and the both the windward and leeward genoa telltales are streaming. The traveller is up to windward so that you can get some twist in the mainsail leech. Look up at the telltale on the leech about 1/4 of the way down the leech. Try to get it to flow by easing out sheet. Pull the traveller up and ease the sheet to get it to flow about half the time. If the leech telltale doesn't flow then the leech is stalled. If it flows all the time you will lose height because the sail is not sheeted hard enough.
- Second gear -Speed gear - In this gear the boat is tracking well and you click in the winches a bit. Harden the sheets in, ease the traveller a bit and sheet the main on. Keep the telltales on both sides of the genoa streaming. For racing cats they seldom get out of this gear. Keep that leech telltale flowing half the time - flicking in and out. But for cruisers
- Third gear - Pointing gear - The wind has come up and you are powering along, often in flat water and then a gust comes along and the boat feels heavy and overloaded. Pull her up into the wind slightly. Let the windward genoa telltale lift. Ease the traveller to keep the helm balanced and maybe sheet on some more mainsheet to keep the leech straight and forestay tight. Ease the traveller when the boat gets cranky and wants to round up. Never fight your boat.
- Fourth gear - depower gear - A really big gust comes along. So you ease the traveller so that almost half the main is backwinding. The windward side of the genoa is luffing and the windward telltale is pointing upwards or spinning. It is really time to reef if this is anything more than a quick gust.

My advice is to totally ditch the instruments. Listen to the boat. In lighter winds get her breathing and then SLOWLY pull lines on and then listen to her. When she slows down ease off and go down a gear and start again. Instruments don't tell you how to sail a boat, they let you have a shorthand for angles if you already know the boat. So head out, watch that main leech telltale and get it flowing half the time, don't pinch and get ready to change down when required. In my experience the fastest sailors are those who can listen to their boats and change gears correctly. When you get a feel for the boat a wind angle meter may help at night but the boat should tell you what she wants at all other times.

I used to race Laser dinghies, along with anything else. At major regattas the winners would take 80 minutes to complete the course and then the last placegetter would be about 20 minutes further back - in identical boats. All of this difference was down to how the boat was sailed. Get good at sailing by listening to the boat.

Also, why put weight down the back. In every other type of boat you put weight forward to lift the bum when seeking speed. If the wake is not clear (if the transoms are immersed) then you should not be putting weight aft as that will increase drag. Weight forward in 1st gear. Like others said - ensure you have folding props - your boat can't sail properly with huge amounts of drag. When my mums cat got a transom extension, new main and folding props it went from an absolute barking dog to a nice swift cruiser. Bum out of water, low drag, nice sail trim = fun sailing.

cheers

Phil

[fabgo]

Originally Posted by admiralslater

I just installed a chart plotter on our Outremer ,it keeps the tracks so you can where the boat was going no matter how close to the wind you were pointing . I f you have on of these give it a try by either making notes or going back and sailing between to fix points with different angles and trims . Unless crawling of a lee shore vmg is king

Admiral,

Since your boat has boards, can you share the TWA you achieve upwind? I'm curious how much of a difference there is. Although I imagine the Outremer makes less leeway as well.

Reading this thread and and also from info I picked up on some blogs and elsewhere, I do get the impression the Lagoon 380 sails quite well, better than many of the newer Lagoons.

[admiralslater]

[QUOTE=fabgo;2249625]Admiral,

Since your boat has boards, can you share the TWA you achieve upwind? I'm curious how much of a difference there is. Although I imagine the Outremer makes less leeway as well.

Fabgo the short answer is that I am not sure yet. Most of our sailing has been close hauled on a single tack. The only actual beating has been short ish beats into Bequia, which features high hills flat water on one side and big waves on the other. That said th plotter showed plots of about 90 degrees, which would include leeway tides etc.
I will get it better,this year I plan to install a proper out haul on the main. I will also rectify the Outremer's dirty little secret which is that the self tacking gear that they install Sucks. It is almost impossible to set the jib. I must also learn the boards.
We seem to be able to point as well as similar monohulls and higher than most Catamarans.
Our Pdq 36 is another matter. We have sailed the wheels off it for 13 years. It is fitted with carbon boards and high performance sails. In full race trim we tack through the low 80s with almost no leeway. We are significantly faster than a Benetau 36.7 when both boats are hard on the wind. The tacking angles are similar. I use the Bene. As an example because it is a good racer/cruiser of about the same length.

I have not sailed on other production Cats so cannot really comment on them but on a whole I would bet that early models of major builders might be better sailing boats.

QUOTE]

[thinwater]

Several things are dead obvious:

* Learn to sail without instruments on a small boat.
* If you want to understand your boat, either find or build a speed polar. I this case, a nice one was posted. It's slow.
* Read the tacking angles off the GPS, not the compass. Leeway is a killer and Sp tells you that anything less than 50 awa is bad.
* Sail along side other boats and see what works. Advise for other boats will be generally correct but wrong in the details. Nothing beats a trial horse and it's fun.

This boat is slow, even for a cruising cat. It just is. There are several L380 in my area and I drop them like a bad habit, though I've never seen one really hard on the wind . Seriously, 4-5 knots in 20 apparent at 45-50 true angle? I'd be at 8. That said, I've added sail, modified the keel, and a few more small things.

A few thoughts about cats and LARs:
Sail Delmarva: Driving to Windward...

And this doesn't mean I can't slow down. If I throw in a reef she's gentle as a baby.