Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

[Stumble]

Vander,

Solarwave has a set of yet refused to release technical specs for their boat. Including motor size, current draw, battery size, solar panel size, speed at load, etc. Basically any data that would support their claims. It's been a couple of years since they started touting that thing, and still no hard data.

Frankly I think they intend their boat to be a diesel/electric cruiser, with enough solar panels to make people feel 'green' but not enough to make meaningful propulsion power.

[StuM]

That video is about as reliable for prediction as a climate GCM

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Vander,
Frankly I think they intend their boat to be a diesel/electric cruiser, with enough solar panels to make people feel 'green' but not enough to make meaningful propulsion power.

Same as any modern sail boat - "sail/diesel cruiser". Diesel used while in and out of marinas, no wind, wind in wrong direction, wind is too weak etc.

Remember - this is 62' luxury catamaran, so your "I'm not using much fuel on my 40' cat" makes no sense here. While Solarwave 62 will not eliminate diesel use completely, I'd buy it all day if it uses, let say, 2 times more diesel than COMPARABLE sailboat in real life conditions (condomaran, if you wish). Why? Because no sails to worry about, no mast, no rigging, no winches to break, no wind direction to worry about, no tacking, no bridges (!!!) to worry about...I better would be dealing with electronics.
And their design can be dramatically improved, adding another 10-15kW of solar by increasing beam (more usable roof area) and adding additional retractable panels.
Yes, price is not cheap (but not much more than comparable size brand new catamaran, by surprise!), and this is the only thing stopping me on this right now.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

Same as any modern sail boat - "sail/diesel cruiser". Diesel used while in and out of marinas, no wind, wind in wrong direction, wind is too weak etc.

Remember - this is 62' luxury catamaran, so your "I'm not using much fuel on my 40' cat" makes no sense here. While Solarwave 62 will not eliminate diesel use completely, I'd buy it all day if it uses, let say, 2 times more diesel than COMPARABLE sailboat in real life conditions (condomaran, if you wish). Why? Because no sails to worry about, no mast, no rigging, no winches to break, no wind direction to worry about, no tacking, no bridges (!!!) to worry about...I better would be dealing with electronics.
And their design can be dramatically improved, adding another 10-15kW of solar by increasing beam (more usable roof area) and adding additional retractable panels.
Yes, price is not cheap (but not much more than comparable size brand new catamaran, by surprise!), and this is the only thing stopping me on this right now.

I assume you meant 1/2 as much diesel...

If that's the case, just buy a standard condomaran and simply throttle back to 5kts. Compared to running at 8kts, you will use 1/2 as much diesel and still be going faster than a solar powered boat.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

Same as any modern sail boat - "sail/diesel cruiser". Diesel used while in and out of marinas, no wind, wind in wrong direction, wind is too weak etc.

Remember - this is 62' luxury catamaran, so your "I'm not using much fuel on my 40' cat" makes no sense here. While Solarwave 62 will not eliminate diesel use completely, I'd buy it all day if it uses, let say, 2 times more diesel than COMPARABLE sailboat in real life conditions (condomaran, if you wish). Why? Because no sails to worry about, no mast, no rigging, no winches to break, no wind direction to worry about, no tacking, no bridges (!!!) to worry about...I better would be dealing with electronics.
And their design can be dramatically improved, adding another 10-15kW of solar by increasing beam (more usable roof area) and adding additional retractable panels.
Yes, price is not cheap (but not much more than comparable size brand new catamaran, by surprise!), and this is the only thing stopping me on this right now.

I have run the numbers all over the forum. Fundamentally it boils down to the fact that a boat at moderate displacement speeds will use about the same amount of power in 12 hours as the solar array will put out in a month. So sure if you motor for a few hours then step off the boat for a week you can assume I think will be recharged, but that's about the only usage profile where you won't need to switch to burning diesel. At which point the conversion inefficiencies in diesel/electric ruin fuel economy.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by Stumble

I have run the numbers all over the forum.

So did Solarwave builders in their video. There's absolutely no reason why anyone should trust to your numbers rather than Solarwave numbers.
And better yet, they actually created the boat, sooner or later real life numbers will show up. I don't see what you've done to proof your numbers in real life, sorry.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I assume you meant 1/2 as much diesel...

If that's the case, just buy a standard condomaran and simply throttle back to 5kts. Compared to running at 8kts, you will use 1/2 as much diesel and still be going faster than a solar powered boat.

No i did not make mistake. I was talking about real life numbers. All fuel usage on 60ft sailing catamaran per one year, excluding dinghy. Diesel propulsion, diesel to generate power or run appliances, propane for stove etc. etc.

If Solarwave uses two times more fuel PER YEAR (that would be only diesel for generator), I'd still would choose Solarwave all the way because all above mentioned reasons.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

So did Solarwave builders in their video. There's absolutely no reason why anyone should trust to your numbers rather than Solarwave numbers.
And better yet, they actually created the boat, sooner or later real life numbers will show up. I don't see what you've done to proof your numbers in real life, sorry.

Except they have as of yet refused to show any actual data. All they have published is pretty made up numbers, weird gauges showing nothing, and statements like 'better fuel economy.'


All I am asking for is engine size (hp or kw), solar panel size, battery size, current draw a top X speed, generator size, diesel tank size.

If they have them up on their website let me know I would be happy to actually see what they indicate. But all of the data I would like to see is trivially easy to get on any other boat, why are they holding it so proprietary.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by Stumble

All I am asking for is engine size (hp or kw), solar panel size, battery size, current draw a top X speed, generator size, diesel tank size.

current draw a top X speed - that's the only unknown number, if I remember correctly, all other numbers I've seen.

But I'm sure that will show up too.

....
From Solawave 62 specs (pulled from different web-sites):
Approx. 1.000 L fuel tank
two powerful electric motors (> 1.000 Nm) (41 kW continuous and 62 kW peak)

emergency generator included – with the Solarwave 62' is 8 kW, but Nedship will also offer upgrades from 12 to 20 kW, or a 30 kW MME turbine generator.

speed electric…. 7-13 kn, or higher on stronger e-motors
speed hybrid …..+ 20 kn
15 kW photovoltaic array connected to a series of 100 kWh batteries.

It's definitely not slow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8rq_2o8pSM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSUpFgLZcA4

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

No i did not make mistake. I was talking about real life numbers. All fuel usage on 60ft sailing catamaran per one year, excluding dinghy. Diesel propulsion, diesel to generate power or run appliances, propane for stove etc. etc.

If Solarwave uses two times more fuel PER YEAR (that would be only diesel for generator), I'd still would choose Solarwave all the way because all above mentioned reasons.

For less than $500 I can remove the mast and address all the other issues you suggest.

So, clearly you could care less about the factual information, you want it because you've drank some koolaid...it's not even clear what koolaid.

There may come a day when solar/battery/generator makes sense but it's a long way off. People keep giving you the physics behind it along with the math and other than "hope" you have nothing to counter it. The boat in your example has been around long enough that if it really did what they claim, they would be spouting off factual data and comparisons left and right.

Feel free to live on the bleeding edge of technology but understand most bleeding edge technology fails to live up to the promises. People only like to talk about the rare successes.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

current draw a top X speed - that's the only unknown number, if I remember correctly, all other numbers I've seen.

But I'm sure that will show up too.

....
From Solawave 62 specs (pulled from different web-sites):
Approx. 1.000 L fuel tank
two powerful electric motors (> 1.000 Nm) (41 kW continuous and 62 kW peak)

emergency generator included – with the Solarwave 62' is 8 kW, but Nedship will also offer upgrades from 12 to 20 kW, or a 30 kW MME turbine generator.

speed electric…. 7-13 kn, or higher on stronger e-motors
speed hybrid …..+ 20 kn
15 kW photovoltaic array connected to a series of 100 kWh batteries.

So, 82kw of motors with 100kwh of batteries suggests a range of abut 1.2hrs. The 8kw generator might bump that to 1.4hrs. Generator running flat out (is it actually rated for8kw continuous?) and the solar panels perfectly aligned producing 100% of their rated output, you get a 5hr range using 100% of the battery power. Then it takes 2 full days for the solar to recharge the batteries (again assuming absolute perfect conditions)

Even at half power, you only get up to around 2-3hrs run time.

82kw is not going to get a 62' vessel anywhere close to 20kts but this is typical for these projects were they throw inconsistent numbers around and hope no one actually questions them.

FYI - power is not measured in Nm. I can get 1000+Nm out of a 5hp lawn mower engine.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

So, 82kw of motors with 100kwh of batteries suggests a range of abut 1.2hrs...

So if 60ft catamaran has 2x150hp diesels, they use 300 hp of power all the time? Hmm, interesting logic.
82kW electric motor can run at 1kW or 5kW, or 10kW.
The only number that matters - current draw at let say 7 knots. Not any artificial number from your or my head, but real life number. So far I haven't seen it. The rest - pointless discussion. The boat exists, it's on water, not in someone's imagination. So real number will show up.

And one more thing regarding "82kw is not going to get a 62' vessel anywhere close to 20kt". I wouldn't be so sure about this. There are many factors involved. One of them - length to beam ratio (which is unknown for Solarwave). I can show huge 80ft trimaran with L/B ratio 19, it can cruise easily at over 10 knots with single diesel...

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

People keep giving you the physics behind it

Buddy, I'm electronics engineer, just in case you're interested. People in this forum arguing with numbers while the boat IS on water, and I've posted video to proof that! It moves, and it is NOT slow. There's ABSOLUTELY no problem to correct ANY of these numbers on hull #2. Any generator can be installed, another 15 kW of solar can be added easily on sliding panels, 2000L fuel tank can be fitted. So what? Keep fighting with numbers, if you enjoy it.

Sh*t, I bet even if some of you will be on that boat you still will refuse to believe the numbers on the gages saying they're incorrect lol.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

So if 60ft catamaran has 2x150hp diesels, they use 300 hp of power all the time? Hmm, interesting logic.
82kW electric motor can run at 1kW or 5kW, or 10kW.
The only number that matters - current draw at let say 7 knots. Not any artificial number from your or my head, but real life number. So far I haven't seen it. The rest - pointless discussion. The boat exists, it's on water, not in someone's imagination. So real number will show up.

And one more thing regarding "82kw is not going to get a 62' vessel anywhere close to 20kt". I wouldn't be so sure about this. There are many factors involved. One of them - length to beam ratio (which is unknown for Solarwave). I can show huge 80ft trimaran with L/B ratio 19, it can cruise easily at over 10 knots with single diesel...

82kw is no where close to putting out 300hp.

Sure the 300hp of engines run at around 150hp total output most of the time or about 50% more than max output of the electric motors. Of course you can just throttle back the 300hp to put out similar HP to the electric motors (10kw likely won't move a 62' cat against a 5kt headwind)

You can also put much larger generators in but then you have to throw out all the performance figures and start over. Of course at that point, your efficiency numbers from comparing low speed on the hybrid to normal speed on the diesel goes out the window.

I would love to see the power draw at 7kts. Oddly, the promoters always dance around the subject. (7kts for a 62' cat is well below typical cruising speeds, so when comparing to diesel powered boats comparable fuel efficiency would be much better)

I believe you were the one mentioning condomarans. You can do better with a low drag really narrow hulls but then you lose load carrying ability and you can do the same thing (probably better) with diesels. Don't confuse engine sizing with fuel source.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

Buddy, I'm electronics engineer, just in case you're interested. People in this forum arguing with numbers while the boat IS on water, and I've posted video to proof that! It moves, and it is NOT slow. There's ABSOLUTELY no problem to correct ANY of these numbers on hull #2. Any generator can be installed, another 15 kW of solar can be added easily on sliding panels, 2000L fuel tank can be fitted. So what? Keep fighting with numbers, if you enjoy it.

Sh*t, I bet even if some of you will be on that boat you still will refuse to believe the numbers on the gages saying they're incorrect lol.

You may or may not be an electronics engineer but your comments clearly show a disconnect with physics.

Show us standard gauges showing standard output and we'll be happy to buy in. The problem is every one of the promoters when they do provide data the mix it up and confuse it. I find it hard to believe if these systems are viable, not one of the promoters have solid engineers who can do a straight up comparison...Either they are incompetent or they are trying to confuse the issue.