Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

Lol. The only number I didn't put in specs, and there's "fight" with it right away ))

I guess the "fighters" just to lazy or to busy (fighting ) to visit the links I've provided. That's OK, here it is:
It sleeps 5 to 6 persons for the long journey across the Atlantic and has room for large groups for visits or short excursions.

But that doesn't matter AT ALL - any fast catamaran hull can be used to mount solar array and batteries on it. Even that dismasted Gunboat hull.


About "sailing record" - so any of you sailors, ever come close to that "sailing record"? Or you are closer to more realistic 5 knots average speed?

Another number - 12ton. This solar boat is old technology, with lead batteries. They are heavy, you know (and this also tells that their usable capacity was probably about 40kWh out of 54, unlike modern batteries). And solar panels are old tech too - heavy ones, not flexible light modern ones.

"...So yes they pulled off a stunt..." Ok, but technology works, ain't it? And it can and will be improved from this 10-year old point, right? The first is always the toughest one. Yes, that solar platform looks flimsy and should be reinforced, etc.etc.etc., but this is only beginning.

"...my old Gemini could match ithe for speed..." - the point is - this boat did use ZERO fuel and it has no sails! I really, really would like to see how far your Gemini will get you without fuel and sails. But than again, current might be in your favor, so you might be in luck...

First go look at theboat, just look at it, and tell me where you would actually put five people on board? It's a shallow hulled bridgedeck so the only living accommodations are in the hulls. With two single beds in each hull (one for one aft), withthe fifth person on watch. There's no storage space, no room for much of anything really. It's a stripped down, purpose built boat for one job, getting across the ocean with solar power only. And I congratulate the guys involved, but it wasn't rocket science, they took a 13m bridgedeck racing catamaran striped it of all comform, and got the mission done.

As for what a modern version would look like, well short of a full hull redesign it isn't that hard to run the numbers. The only thing that wouldn't likely change is the batteries and the efficiency of the solar panels.

Batteries installed storage (2) 520ah @48v. The easy way to build that bank is 16 260ah 6v batteries per side. Using good Trojan deep cycle batteries at 72lbs per, that's 1,152lbs of batteries per side, or 2,304 total on board with an installed price of $6,496 plus shipping, installation, and cabeling.

Now I will admit I don't have a go lifepo battery supplier like Trojan but Bioennopower sells a 100ah 12v battery so I will use that. This leaves us a little short on power, but just 20ah short. We will need 20 of these batteries a side at a weight of 26 lbs per side. So 520lbs per side (1040lbs total) and at a cost of $862/battery an installed cost per side of $17.240 a side ($34,480 total).

So switching to lifepo batteries saves us about 1,300lbs for an additional $27,984. That's a pretty big hunch of weight off the boat, and you could probably get away with fewer lifepo batteries because of the deeper discharge rate, but we are only talking about 5% weight trimmings. Significant sure, but it isn't going to be like night and day.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

"...my old Gemini could match ithe for speed..." - the point is - this boat did use ZERO fuel and it has no sails! I really, really would like to see how far your Gemini will get you without fuel and sails. But than again, current might be in your favor, so you might be in luck...

But why should the Gemini go without sails? It's a sailing boat. Seems a weird point to make. How well would this boat have done without solar panels?


Anyway, here's the thing. If you think it's practical, a fully solar powered, long distance cruising boat, stop trying to convince others and go ahead and build it.


The best, most convincing argument you could make would be to get out there and do it.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by Stumble

First go look at theboat, just look at it, and tell me where you would actually put five people on board? It's a shallow hulled bridgedeck so the only living accommodations are in the hulls. With two single beds in each hull (one for one aft), withthe fifth person on watch. There's no storage space, no room for much of anything really. It's a stripped down, purpose built boat for one job, getting across the ocean with solar power only. And I congratulate the guys involved, but it wasn't rocket science, they took a 13m bridgedeck racing catamaran striped it of all comform, and got the mission done.

But that doesn't matter AT ALL - any fast catamaran hull can be used to mount solar array and batteries on it. Even that dismasted Gunboat hull.
This is just prototype.

As for what a modern version would look like, well short of a full hull redesign it isn't that hard to run the numbers. The only thing that wouldn't likely change is the batteries and the efficiency of the solar panels.

Batteries installed storage (2) 520ah @48v. The easy way to build that bank is 16 260ah 6v batteries per side. Using good Trojan deep cycle batteries at 72lbs per, that's 1,152lbs of batteries per side, or 2,304 total on board with an installed price of $6,496 plus shipping, installation, and cabeling.

Now I will admit I don't have a go lifepo battery supplier like Trojan but Bioennopower sells a 100ah 12v battery so I will use that. This leaves us a little short on power, but just 20ah short. We will need 20 of these batteries a side at a weight of 26 lbs per side. So 520lbs per side (1040lbs total) and at a cost of $862/battery an installed cost per side of $17.240 a side ($34,480 total).

So switching to lifepo batteries saves us about 1,300lbs for an additional $27,984. That's a pretty big hunch of weight off the boat, and you could probably get away with fewer lifepo batteries because of the deeper discharge rate, but we are only talking about 5% weight trimmings. Significant sure, but it isn't going to be like night and day.

I really don't get it - what all these numbers, prices are for? My point is not financial expedience of such boat at today's prices. New technology almost never is cheap. Tesla is still a very expensive car, too.

Prototype - Sun 21 - clearly showed that even 10 year old solar/battery technology could be theoretically used for circumnavigation.

From that point it will go on. Prices will drop, especially on solar panels, most efficient hull shape will be used, design adapted for huge solar array, etc. And I really look forward to see next solar boat.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

But why should the Gemini go without sails? It's a sailing boat.

Because for me whole point of using solar energy - to eliminate sails and eliminate (or significantly reduce) use of diesels (silent propulsion).

Anyway, here's the thing. If you think it's practical, a fully solar powered, long distance cruising boat, stop trying to convince others and go ahead and build it.

I'm not trying to convince anybody to do anything. I'm giving information (that Sun 21 catamaran, for example, or Solarwave 62) to these, who wants to see it/read it/study it. You're not obligated to read or respond. And I'm trying to explain to these very sceptical that solar technology is around the corner, yes, it's still on prototype stage, but it's out there.
If I had enough money, I would be already at Solarwave factory discussing details and specs.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

But why should the Gemini go without sails? It's a sailing boat. Seems a weird point to make. How well would this boat have done without solar panels?


Anyway, here's the thing. If you think it's practical, a fully solar powered, long distance cruising boat, stop trying to convince others and go ahead and build it.


The best, most convincing argument you could make would be to get out there and do it.

Because another poster goes on about not wanting sails but most standard cruising cats can easily be modified to cross oceans as shown by a small coastal cruising cat being able to do it once you accept the horrible performance that would be available from a solar powered boat.

When you figure the energy that goes into making acres of solar panels and tons of batteries, I doubt you will ever save enough to balance it out. Certainly not enough to justify the extra up front cost.

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

When you figure the energy that goes into making acres of solar panels and tons of batteries, I doubt you will ever save enough to balance it out.

Now that's something strange Solar opponent cares about environment more than solar advocate????

[valhalla360]

World of difference between wanting to look eco-friendly and actually making intelligent choices.

But hey, if appearance is what you are after. ..

[ranchero76]

Once again - I don't care about "eco-friendly". A agree with you - there's so much scam going o. Like you said - chinese factories, where these solar panels produced, not "green" at all. So it's outside of my priorities.

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Because another poster goes on about not wanting sails but most standard cruising cats can easily be modified to cross oceans as shown by a small coastal cruising cat being able to do it once you accept the horrible performance that would be available from a solar powered boat.

When you figure the energy that goes into making acres of solar panels and tons of batteries, I doubt you will ever save enough to balance it out. Certainly not enough to justify the extra up front cost.

As everyone knows I am a huge critic of solar powered boats, but there is absolutly no question that solar panels make sense from an ecological standpoint. The energy payback period on commercial cells is at worst about three years, better cells are as low as nine months.

Batteries obviously don't produce power, but allow you to time shift it, and by delaying or reducing the amount of diesel use during have a major ecological benefit. I just can't find data on how many kWh of power it takes to produce on battery so I can't make a reasonable guess on their effect. But my feeling is that over the lifecycle of a FLA offset diesel usage more than offsets their logistical and production overhead.

There are plenty of good arguments against solar boats, but this isn't one of them.

[a64pilot]

What nobody brings up Al Gores new boat, BS1?

Here in my ignorance, I thought the ultimate Solar powered boat, was a sailboat?

[Nahbrown]

FWIW (which maynot be much). We were given a tour of a couple physics labs yesterday at the University of Houston. They are using nanotechnology to put nanotubes on the surface of solar panels to increase the solar collection per square foot. Lets say that tech can increase energy collection by 10 times ( thier words) would that leap in technology have any impact on the goal of an electric/sailing blue water vessels?

[ranchero76]

Originally Posted by Nahbrown

FWIW (which maynot be much). We were given a tour of a couple physics labs yesterday at the University of Houston. They are using nanotechnology to put nanotubes on the surface of solar panels to increase the solar collection per square foot. Lets say that tech can increase energy collection by 10 times ( thier words) would that leap in technology have any impact on the goal of an electric/sailing blue water vessels?

It certainly would, but we'll wait for real working prototype

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Nahbrown

FWIW (which maynot be much). We were given a tour of a couple physics labs yesterday at the University of Houston. They are using nanotechnology to put nanotubes on the surface of solar panels to increase the solar collection per square foot. Lets say that tech can increase energy collection by 10 times ( thier words) would that leap in technology have any impact on the goal of an electric/sailing blue water vessels?

That will be quite some achievement. Given that solar is about 20% efficient now, if they can increase energy collection by 10 times (their words???) , they will he harvesting twice as much energy as the sun is radiating onto the panels.

Hmmm, twice as much energy out as in? Now what does that remind me of?


Why don't we put a 51% efficient light source above those panels, drive them from the panel output and voila! free energy for ever, even at night.

[Nahbrown]

Originally Posted by ranchero76

It certainly would, but we'll wait for real working prototype

Of course haha ... the funny thing is that as this genius was explaining these things to me (not a genius). I kept thinking of this thread lol

Originally Posted by StuM

That will be quite some achievement. Given that solar is about 20% efficient now, if they can increase energy collection by 10 times (their words???) , they will he harvesting twice as much energy as the sun is radiating onto the panels.

Hmmm, twice as much energy out as in? Now what does that remind me of?


Why don't we put a 51% efficient light source above those panels, drive them from the panel output and voila! free energy for ever, even at night.

Well that makes no sense, I'm sure the error was in my listening skills. Sufice to say they are working at making panels more efficient

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Nahbrown

Of course haha ... the funny thing is that as this genius was explaining these things to me (not a genius). I kept thinking of this thread lol




Well that makes no sense, I'm sure the error was in my listening skills. Sufice to say they are working at making panels more efficient

People get excited when explaining things. And 10 times is a pretty easy off the cuff remark to make. Particularly when in his head he may just being excited.

But ya, commercial cheap solar panels are running about 20% efficient now. The ones they launch into space are over 30% (and over 45% in laboratories) efficient but the cost of them is astronomical compared to terrestrial systems. But I guess when you are paying $10,000/lb for installation the extra cost of the panels isn't that much if you can get away with half as many panels.