Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

[Dave22q]

To me its simple insurance. If I was going to put $500,000 + into a new boat I would insist the contract be conditioned on passing delivery inspections. Investing up to 5% in qualified inspectors seems to be a no brainer. It's just not like buying a new car where problems tend to fairly easy to spot and the contract law is well understood.

[Cheechako]

Yeah, but that inspection is just the start, resolving the results of that "inspection" could take a very long, frustrating time. They already have some of your money.
You are also going to need to establish a standard by which the seller and buyer agree is to be used as a basis.

[Dave22q]

The sad reality is that once you accept delivery your legal position switches from very strong to weak. They have your money, stalling is to their benefit. You are far stronger suing for breech of contract damages if you never accepted delivery.

[CarstenWL]

Yeah, but that inspection is just the start, resolving the results of that "inspection" could take a very long, frustrating time.

I can only tell from experience (once was overlooking the last 3 months prior to delivery of a new CNB76 for an owner) and am now overlooking a $600k refit on a 92ft sloop for the last 4 months (due to be ready in 10 days).

In both cases 'the list of problems' at the end was very short (if any) and it was very easy for the yards to fix the problems basically the next day after I pointed them out.

If you wait until the end it can be very time consuming to fix things (things might be covered already with furniture, ...).

Will not help the OP though but maybe other people intending to buy a new boat.

Regards,

Carsten

[BothFeet]

I chartered a Lagoon 52 in April 2015. It was crap. Numerous items failed (hinges, hydraulics, hatches, switches, alarms, etc) during the 1 week we had the boat. I was in Annapolis for the show and purposefully asked Lagoon reps if they had made changes for these failures and they said they are aware of them and that they had not taken any action to correct them. FAIL! For example (1) the hinges in the sole of the saloon are so thin you can bend them with your fingers. When they fail the hydraulic lifters spring the floor board out of its place forcing you to remove the hydraulic arms to get the floorboards to lay flat. (2) the switches for the elec heads are not waterproof and are located in the shower. (3) the hydraulic arms that lift the glass gullwing hatches for the rear cabins only have a 3/16" screw holding them to the boat. They break!

That boat is CRAP! If you can't use quality materials then don't build the damn boat!

[mark_morwood]

Frank,

Unfortunately I think you have a difficult decision to make, is it more important to you to get Lagoon to do the fixing as they should, or is it more important to you to get out cruising?

If you are most interested in getting out cruising and enjoying the boat, then I think you are going to have to do something like Ken suggests above - accept that you are where you are and focus on what it takes to get things fixed independent of who should be fixing them. If there are really big items you are going to want Lagoon to take care of them, but if you can keep their list down to clear major faults, and take care of the rest yourself I suspect you will get the boat ready to go more quickly and cheaply than trying to get them to do everything.

Maybe you can get someone who is experienced but not too close to the situation to sit down and help with list and the project plan. Maybe someone from the Lagoon owners group who has had similar experiences could help?

Of course the other option is to walk away and take a big hit on selling the boat now.

My only real advice is don't let your justifiable frustration and anger with Lagoon get in the way of enjoying the boat and getting out cruising - even if it will be a season later than you initially planned.

Good luck.

Mark.

[Jim Cate]

Unfortunately I think you have a difficult decision to make, is it more important to you to get Lagoon to do the fixing as they should, or is it more important to you to get out cruising?

While I agree with this approach, knuckling under and letting Lagoon get away with their shoddy practice only reinforces their business model of stuffing the customer.

I can understand Frank's desire to get them to do the right thing, and how that might interfere with the logical step of getting on with the work on his own.

A difficult and likely emotional decision!

Jim

[colemj]

I would think that if the OP followed some of the advice here regarding circumventing Lagoon for effecting repairs, that it would give Lagoon legal rights to wash their hands of future problems.

If the OP's problems are mechanical or structural, he could be stuck with a substantially defective new boat and no recourse by following this advice.

If the OP's problems are simple ones like undersized wires to electronics or a dodgy door hinge, then I agree that he should just fix these himself and move on.

Mark

[captlloyd]

Here is an idea that may or may not be valid. I think it is. The world is full of very handy people who would love to spend some time on a boat such as this. Trade. Free cruising time vs. repair work. Run an ad and interview, start out with small projects and small trips until you find someone you like and does quality work. Let them show you some of their work before you leave. Possibilities abound.

[GoingWalkabout]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I think all of you may be forgetting the key cost management issue of handing new boat Warranty problems....

Especially if it is a sophisticated build...

......LOCATION!

For the first 4 months you should plan a series of short circular trips near factory, so they can service problems cost effectively and without cost to you other than time.

If problems continue.....extend as necessary.

Working with the builder to simplify logistical manpower and material issues will pay dividends in solving the problem with a committed workforce.

The other advantage of doing this.. ......is if things go unworkably bad, ........you are in the right contract jurisdiction to elevate to a legal claim.

Thank you. That is one of the best pieces of advise on this subject.

One other thing I would like to add is that in the motor vehicle industry a number of western countries introduced what is commonly referred to as "lemon laws" This forced car companies to take back a faulty new car and replace it with a non faulty car. What happened was the car manufacturers quickly straightened out their dishonest ways of doing business and put more effort into quality control during the manufacturing process.

What happened in the card industry shows that arrogant car manufacturers who dominate a market needed the legal system to bring about proper behavior. Let it no mistake be made. The reports of delivery of unseaworthy boats is bad behavior in and of itself. To not make good and make whole those who have been deprived of what was contractually promised is reprehensible. To bad we don't have a boat owners association that could truly act in the interests of boat owners and start taking cases like this boat purchaser into the courts.

And I would further add. If you used an agent in say the USA. You can definitely take the matter up in the USA courts. And like in motor vehicle law suites you CAN sue the dealer.

[alansmith]

Frank, what a pickle you are in. Wife is disturbed to the point of abandoning ship, friends tickets thrown in the brine, and humiliation that a lifetime of work to buy a very expensive Cat has turned into a debacle of 'where is the sunshine in this?'

Look, friend, some of the advice on here is post advice that can not be done now since you are already on the hook of these sharks. You are going to miss the ARC most likely and just accept that. Steinbeck's quote of "best laid plans of mice and men often go awry" is your cold soup for dinner.

You have spent a fortune...at least in my world it would be a fortune..you can not sell the boat...you can't walk away from it...you have to deal with it. You know that...everyone on here knows that. It is like being out on a deserted island and you have an abscessed tooth. It gets worse every day. So, you only have an ice skate blade to knock it out. Bloodly lovely day, mate! (Tom Hanks movie scene).

I do not know how to fix this mess you are in. You did not get a million dollars to plunk down on a boat and be a man without some mental capacity. I do not think you can put the companies nose to the grind stone, so to speak. If it were me I would spend the money to consult with an attorney in La Rochelle. I would ask some local yachties...who must have witnessed this travesty more than once for some references. I would think that a marine related attorney or contract type of attorney would be appropriate. Yes, it will cost you a couple of hundred Euro but that is water off a duck's back to what you are experiencing now.

Attorneys talking across the table with the manufacturer's attorney is a completely different type of talk than the run around you are getting. It is clinical, non-emotional, non-personal, and legal based arguments.

See if it yields fruit.

[alansmith]

I just want to add something more. It has been said many times on this forum and I think I joined in the Spring of this year 2015. You have got to have all of your eggs lined up before buying a new boat. Personally, there are too many great boats out there for me to even consider buying a new boat. That being said...

1. Contracts are contracts. If you do not understand contracts then hire an attorney that is associated with marine industry in the country you are purchasing in. Have an airtight contract that leaves no wiggle room for the manufacturer. Without contractual language that is airtight...once they have the golden egg...u are feathered and tarred.

2. Have that contract state, what was posted earlier by a responder to this thread, that monies will not be delivered (perhaps 25 percent withheld) until the boat passes all inspections mentioned by another responder which would include electrical, mechanical, systems, electronics, rigging, and heaven's only knows what else.

3. Manufacture pays for all marina expenses until boat is signed off no matter how long the delays.

4. That the manufacture is responsible for every thing...not the sales reps...until delivery signed off.

5. During the sign out process it would include sea trials and I would make them brisk ones to check for delamination, leakage, and whatever. It would not just be a 2 hour, 10 knots of wind, and 2 foot harbor chop type of thing.

If they balk at this contract...that is your answer to run away and thank Goodness for their tipping their hand.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by alansmith

..... 5. During the sign out process it would include sea trials and I would make them brisk ones to check for delamination, leakage, and whatever. It would not just be a 2 hour, 10 knots of wind, and 2 foot harbor chop type of thing..

While good advice that you specify very detailed dock and sea trials, including a portion in rough weather..... the "post delivery" problems often take time and varying conditions.... to raise their ugly heads.

Minor Faults often have a knock on affect as the systems are loaded and unloaded to varying degrees under normal use.

Intermittent problems develop slowly, but can then cause major damage and costly failure.

Latent defects in material choice or execution do not fail until strained to maximum, which often does not happen until a new Owner inadvertently causes that scenario in his first year of use.

Subcontractor installed equipment often has less quality control than builder's installed subsystem, so fault finding and assessing responsibility, requires both companies to examine.

That is why I recommend staying close to Builder's location, during warranty period.

Perhaps Frank should return boat to factory with qualified representative to solve the various mechanical and electronic problems.

[SailFastTri]

Originally Posted by alansmith

I just want to add something more. It has been said many times on this forum and I think I joined in the Spring of this year 2015. You have got to have all of your eggs lined up before buying a new boat. Personally, there are too many great boats out there for me to even consider buying a new boat. That being said...

1. Contracts are contracts. If you do not understand contracts then hire an attorney that is associated with marine industry in the country you are purchasing in. Have an airtight contract that leaves no wiggle room for the manufacturer. Without contractual language that is airtight...once they have the golden egg...u are feathered and tarred.

2. Have that contract state, what was posted earlier by a responder to this thread, that monies will not be delivered (perhaps 25 percent withheld) until the boat passes all inspections mentioned by another responder which would include electrical, mechanical, systems, electronics, rigging, and heaven's only knows what else.

3. Manufacture pays for all marina expenses until boat is signed off no matter how long the delays.

4. That the manufacture is responsible for every thing...not the sales reps...until delivery signed off.

5. During the sign out process it would include sea trials and I would make them brisk ones to check for delamination, leakage, and whatever. It would not just be a 2 hour, 10 knots of wind, and 2 foot harbor chop type of thing.

If they balk at this contract...that is your answer to run away and thank Goodness for their tipping their hand.

Alan -- your post above this about legal advice was spot on.

But -- no large boat manufacturer will take a contract with the type of stipulations above. They require substantial progress payments and in my limited experience, they will have 90% of the purchase price prior to delivery.

10% is a substantial amount to withhold, and a detailed professional survey would not be justified if the maker delivered decent quality as promised. A typical 1-2 hour "sea trial" upon delivery (usually in nice weather) is not going to reveal anything but the most obvious defects. If the maker is honorable any latent defects will be handled within the warranty period.

I don't agree with some posts saying failure to honor warranty is "typical" but unfortunately it does happen. (I had a good experience buying new). Buying a pleasure boat is not a rational thing: It's an emotional process and anyone who does it (regardless of price bracket) has a natural tendency to be emotionally excited -- it's fulfilling a fantasy. We're all vulnerable, at one time or another and trust is part of the equation.

When trust goes out the window and being cooperative/nice fails it's time to find a strong legal advocate who can advise further or do your bidding. The court of public opinion doesn't help anyone and the free advice given here is worth what the OP is paying for it -- and may increase his frustration.

[Toys_with_time]

Originally Posted by Frank A

I am the owner of a new Lagoon 52 and which was the dream of my life, this dream is turning to a nightmare. At first, when i purchased the boat in Annapolis boatshow 2014 all the team, including my canadian broker were very friendly and explained to me that in case of issues with Lagoon boats, they have a lot of representatives all around the world and my first journey being in Med, they insisted, in Mediteranean sea, they had more representatives than anywhere else… I got the delivery of the boat in La Rochelle and there a lot of problems started with the options i had chosen, most of employees who were supposed to install these options were not working more than 2 hours a day or did not come when they were supposed to, the worst of all being the software company who works there ( POCHON ) they are just thieves and offers no service but charge the high price to instal things without taking care it works. At the end i started with a fortnight delay on my departure date and was charged full price by the marina to have wait for Lagoon service that most of time did not come.

Not sure what month you were in La Rochelle but basically in the period April / May to September / October there is more work than there are people. Agree with what you said about Pochon - they only did a small amount on my boat but I had to rewire it. I spent 3 months in La Rochelle and didn't leave until I was happy. Only had minor problems since and FP have fixed some and refused to fix others so I have picked up the bill on those but overall very happy with my boat and reasonably happy with FP.

My suggestion would be to sail back to La Rochelle and get everything fixed over winter when there is less pressure on all the contractors. Apart from Turkey there is no where else in the Med where there is such a concentration of services. Set out your requirements in writing and send it to Lagoon France and your dealer but also have your solicitor write a preliminary letter to your dealer setting out your requirements and your intended course of action if not met. Regardless of Lagoons attitude assume legally your contract is with your dealer and that under US or Canadian law you have legal rights. I would avoid the French legal system if you can.

Unfortunately not the first case I have heard of Lagoon owners having incredible hassles. There was a new Lagoon on the ARC + last year and he was talking about suing Lagoon and asking for a total refund on the grounds that his boat was not fit for purpose.

Anyway overall sorry to hear about your experience - for so many of us buying a new boat is the culmination of a dream and to have it turn into a nightmare is terrible. I really hope you can get your dream back on course.

TwT