Lagoon bulkheads

[lestersails]

I really liked impi's post. I am no engineer but it seems to me that a monohull is a modified tube. More modified than an aircraft fuselage, but fundamentally still a tube. A catamaran is two tubes, tied together. To my mind it would seem enormously more difficult to make the latter stable to forces above, say, 95% of those encountered by users. As has been said above, when the forces on one hull are at an angle to that of the other hull, oof. Less artfully said, I expect there are design and building flaws in monohulls that are much better tolerated than are the same flaws in cats because of their inherent structural stability of the former.
I wouldn't take my SUV out for a go at the Dakar rally without modifying it. It just isn't designed for that. Do most mass market boat makers actually make claims that their boats are manufactured for blue water, 'round the world sailing in all conditions? I bet not.
It is fair to ask if one manufacturer designs and builds boats to tolerate 94% of conditions whereas another builds them to tolerate 96% of conditions. A nautical engineer can probably make good predictions about this based on design, specs, and inspections of actual production boats. But you would need truckloads of data to have any confidence of seeing that difference in the real world. The data I am seeing is way short of that - there are so many potential biases in the data there are infinite ways to be led to the wrong conclusion.
I liked impi's post because it is rigorous, sensible, and systematic. It is analogous to how aircraft are maintained - regular, thorough inspections with prescribed tear downs and rebuilds of critical parts.

[smj]

Originally Posted by NaClyDog

Now, this is an interesting response. The fact that it's also a Lagoon adds to the "interestingness", if you will. You stated what you did to your catamaran after it was purchased but not what you purchased. What did Lagoon sell you?



Did you buy (were you sold) a coastal cruiser that would be great for parking near the closest sandy island with a palm tree or did you buy (were you sold) a blue water catamaran ready for world cruising? If you say the latter, I would counter with a big fat NO you did not because if you had, you would not have needed to do any of those modifications.


How many manufacturers are selling their cats with this caveat - "catamarans IN GENERAL are exposed to bulkhead issues because they are wide platforms flexing in heavy seas"? I'm going to hazard a guess and say none. None of those I dealt with did.

More explanations starting around minutes 16:30

https://youtu.be/vxzd0d9z_6M
Kudos to what Cat Impi has accomplished, but it does appear he was not happy with the original bulkheads in his 440.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

Simi,
I dont know if you are aware of Cat Impi's cruising and sailing background, Brent and his wife Anna are no slouches when it comes to sailing the world. Their adventures, which are well documented on youtube and on their blog do not hide behind trying to impress anyone other then tell the world what the real world of cruising is about, warts and all. Brent only spoke the truth based purely on their extensive experience and cruising. Apparently this is not enough for you. Your great loss.


Ozsailer

Not saying they haven't done stuff
But YouTube and blogs don't impress me

I am still surprised that anyone would buy a boat expecting to strengthen bulkheads before using it
And, what tipped him off that the bulkheads had an issue in the first place?
If there was no issue, why did they need strengthening?

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by smj

Having owned 11 used and abused catamarans, none with bulkhead problems, I believe a well designed and well built cat shouldn’t have bulkhead problems.

If a brand of catamaran has numerous boats with bulkhead problems they either weren’t well designed, well built, or a mixture of both.

One should never have to purchase a new or used catamaran thinking the bulkheads need to be strengthened before sailing her.

Exactly.

[impi]

Ok Guys - well the pitch forks are out and coming at a pace that I won’t be able to keep up with and that’s fine by me - I’m sitting on my boat in a beautiful place writing to you all with the best intensions - not a defender of lagoon because I happen to own one. Lord knows how many arguments I had with Lagoon over warranty issues when the boat was new and we sailed her from France to South Africa to prepare for our great departure as International sailors.

I’m not here to prove anything and I’m certainly not very active on YouTube - we do it for fun and don’t put up regular posts so lets forget about the YouTube status - we don’t ask for money so we don’t dramatise anything and the only time we raise money from it is for animal welfare or other needs where we see it on the outer islands, hence the extensive dog program for the outer islands of New Caledonia.
Anything we say or do on social media is from a space of positive vibes and I’m going to remain on that track .

My attempt to cover some ground concerning the responses raised are simply this - I stand by what I’ve shared and one can do the research around this. I am not saying lagoon do not have an issue with bulkheads but I am saying many catamarans do when they sail across oceans.

It seems to me everyone knows this catamaran hit a rock at speed because so much is coming at me except the possibility which could have contributed to their boats issue. Remember - this ‘post’ is originally put up by Cameron65 and is based on SNohoa as ‘another YouTube channel on a 2005 Lagoon 410 reporting bulkhead issues’. This is the main statement all here are responding to and I'm sharing knowledge as I've received it and seen for myself.

To address some of the responses and I will humbly bow out after this as there’s not much more I can say:

Other brands of catamarans have bulkhead issues:

Well yes, they certainly do and I can say this because I get messages and discussions from folks who do. I’m not at liberty to share the messages publicly because it would betray the trust I owe to owners of catamarans but perhaps I can share a recent one by excluding the name of the person:

This is NOT a Lagoon. Its 1:30am here so I want to get some ziz - tried to upload the photo but not sure how to do URL's so put it on YT link (this is one example and also you can find on internet sites). It would be nice if we could insert photos from the laptop directly into the text body and I need to figure out how that's done.

https://youtu.be/HDnt3TLvQd8

https://youtu.be/HDnt3TLvQd8

Why did we decide to upgrade a new boats bulkheads?

We did this simply because we owned a catamaran before the 440 (different brand and it had a bulkhead issue). My family are also in the catamaran business selling Outremer, HH catamarans and others (NOT lagoons) and have service contracts with leopard, FP and other brands and through discussions we decided to make the boat stronger for our style of cruising, and yes, those who know us know we sail regularly off the beaten track out of season. The boat was intended to be our home on the oceans after retiring from business in South Africa and we sail full time. This is why we strengthened not only the bulkhead but did many other projects on our boat.

A comment was made about did Lagoon sell us a coastal cruiser or a blue water boat - well simply put most production boats are made for charter but 'can be' used for Blue Water Cruising . We wanted to take the 'can be' out of it because we want to sail year on year and have been doing so - we purchased the boat 13 years ago and crossed the Atlantic three times (northern and Southern) before heading through the Panama Canal for more remote destinations.

Another comment:
How many manufacturers are selling their cats with this caveat - "catamarans IN GENERAL are exposed to bulkhead issues because they are wide platforms flexing in heavy seas"? I'm going to hazard a guess and say none. None of those I dealt with did.

Well of course not - big production firms sell to a wide sector of people mostly for charter and in many cases to their own charter companies. I'm not coming forward for Lagoon and I would be first to put my hand up and say they have to design it better - but I'm also saying Lagoon is not alone in this and in general catamaran manufacturers will have to look at this.

I've had the great pleasure of sailing in Australia for a few years - and will say Aussies build some nice boats but we are talking about a much bigger production line where obviously one hears more about issues.

Well folks - it's been real - I am so seldom on CF, hardly come here unless I'm promted to - I hope my comments are seen in a positive light with no malice or agenda intended .

Cheers guys and happy sailing until next time

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by impi

Ok Guys - well the pitch forks are out and coming at a pace that I won’t be able to keep up with and that’s fine by me - I’m sitting on my boat in a beautiful place writing to you all with the best intensions - not a defender of lagoon because I happen to own one. Lord knows how many arguments I had with Lagoon over warranty issues when the boat was new and we sailed her from France to South Africa to prepare for our great departure as International sailors.

I’m not here to prove anything and I’m certainly not very active on YouTube - we do it for fun and don’t put up regular posts so lets forget about the YouTube status - we don’t ask for money so we don’t dramatise anything and the only time we raise money from it is for animal welfare or other needs where we see it on the outer islands, hence the extensive dog program for the outer islands of New Caledonia.
Anything we say or do on social media is from a space of positive vibes and I’m going to remain on that track .

My attempt to cover some ground concerning the responses raised are simply this - I stand by what I’ve shared and one can do the research around this. I am not saying lagoon do not have an issue with bulkheads but I am saying many catamarans do when they sail across oceans.

It seems to me everyone knows this catamaran hit a rock at speed because so much is coming at me except the possibility which could have contributed to their boats issue. Remember - this ‘post’ is originally put up by Cameron65 and is based on SNohoa as ‘another YouTube channel on a 2005 Lagoon 410 reporting bulkhead issues’. This is the main statement all here are responding to and I'm sharing knowledge as I've received it and seen for myself.

To address some of the responses and I will humbly bow out after this as there’s not much more I can say:

Other brands of catamarans have bulkhead issues:

Well yes, they certainly do and I can say this because I get messages and discussions from folks who do. I’m not at liberty to share the messages publicly because it would betray the trust I owe to owners of catamarans but perhaps I can share a recent one by excluding the name of the person:

This is NOT a Lagoon. Its 1:30am here so I want to get some ziz - tried to upload the photo but not sure how to do URL's so put it on YT link (this is one example and also you can find on internet sites). It would be nice if we could insert photos from the laptop directly into the text body and I need to figure out how that's done.

https://youtu.be/HDnt3TLvQd8

https://youtu.be/HDnt3TLvQd8

Why did we decide to upgrade a new boats bulkheads?

We did this simply because we owned a catamaran before the 440 (different brand and it had a bulkhead issue). My family are also in the catamaran business selling Outremer, HH catamarans and others (NOT lagoons) and have service contracts with leopard, FP and other brands and through discussions we decided to make the boat stronger for our style of cruising, and yes, those who know us know we sail regularly off the beaten track out of season. The boat was intended to be our home on the oceans after retiring from business in South Africa and we sail full time. This is why we strengthened not only the bulkhead but did many other projects on our boat.

A comment was made about did Lagoon sell us a coastal cruiser or a blue water boat - well simply put most production boats are made for charter but 'can be' used for Blue Water Cruising . We wanted to take the 'can be' out of it because we want to sail year on year and have been doing so - we purchased the boat 13 years ago and crossed the Atlantic three times (northern and Southern) before heading through the Panama Canal for more remote destinations.

Another comment:
How many manufacturers are selling their cats with this caveat - "catamarans IN GENERAL are exposed to bulkhead issues because they are wide platforms flexing in heavy seas"? I'm going to hazard a guess and say none. None of those I dealt with did.

Well of course not - big production firms sell to a wide sector of people mostly for charter and in many cases to their own charter companies. I'm not coming forward for Lagoon and I would be first to put my hand up and say they have to design it better - but I'm also saying Lagoon is not alone in this and in general catamaran manufacturers will have to look at this.

I've had the great pleasure of sailing in Australia for a few years - and will say Aussies build some nice boats but we are talking about a much bigger production line where obviously one hears more about issues.

Well folks - it's been real - I am so seldom on CF, hardly come here unless I'm promted to - I hope my comments are seen in a positive light with no malice or agenda intended .

Cheers guys and happy sailing until next time

I'll go with the above.. sane, reasonable response..
Keep having fun Impi..

[SV Tom Crean]

Originally Posted by impi

Ok Guys - well the pitch forks are out and coming at a pace that I won’t be able to keep up with and that’s fine by me - I’m sitting on my boat in a beautiful place writing to you all with the best intensions - not a defender of lagoon because I happen to own one. Lord knows how many arguments I had with Lagoon over warranty issues when the boat was new and we sailed her from France to South Africa to prepare for our great departure as International sailors.

I’m not here to prove anything and I’m certainly not very active on YouTube - we do it for fun and don’t put up regular posts so lets forget about the YouTube status - we don’t ask for money so we don’t dramatise anything and the only time we raise money from it is for animal welfare or other needs where we see it on the outer islands, hence the extensive dog program for the outer islands of New Caledonia.
Anything we say or do on social media is from a space of positive vibes and I’m going to remain on that track .

My attempt to cover some ground concerning the responses raised are simply this - I stand by what I’ve shared and one can do the research around this. I am not saying lagoon do not have an issue with bulkheads but I am saying many catamarans do when they sail across oceans.

It seems to me everyone knows this catamaran hit a rock at speed because so much is coming at me except the possibility which could have contributed to their boats issue. Remember - this ‘post’ is originally put up by Cameron65 and is based on SNohoa as ‘another YouTube channel on a 2005 Lagoon 410 reporting bulkhead issues’. This is the main statement all here are responding to and I'm sharing knowledge as I've received it and seen for myself.

To address some of the responses and I will humbly bow out after this as there’s not much more I can say:

Other brands of catamarans have bulkhead issues:

Well yes, they certainly do and I can say this because I get messages and discussions from folks who do. I’m not at liberty to share the messages publicly because it would betray the trust I owe to owners of catamarans but perhaps I can share a recent one by excluding the name of the person:

This is NOT a Lagoon. Its 1:30am here so I want to get some ziz - tried to upload the photo but not sure how to do URL's so put it on YT link (this is one example and also you can find on internet sites). It would be nice if we could insert photos from the laptop directly into the text body and I need to figure out how that's done.

https://youtu.be/HDnt3TLvQd8

https://youtu.be/HDnt3TLvQd8

Why did we decide to upgrade a new boats bulkheads?

We did this simply because we owned a catamaran before the 440 (different brand and it had a bulkhead issue). My family are also in the catamaran business selling Outremer, HH catamarans and others (NOT lagoons) and have service contracts with leopard, FP and other brands and through discussions we decided to make the boat stronger for our style of cruising, and yes, those who know us know we sail regularly off the beaten track out of season. The boat was intended to be our home on the oceans after retiring from business in South Africa and we sail full time. This is why we strengthened not only the bulkhead but did many other projects on our boat.

A comment was made about did Lagoon sell us a coastal cruiser or a blue water boat - well simply put most production boats are made for charter but 'can be' used for Blue Water Cruising . We wanted to take the 'can be' out of it because we want to sail year on year and have been doing so - we purchased the boat 13 years ago and crossed the Atlantic three times (northern and Southern) before heading through the Panama Canal for more remote destinations.

Another comment:
How many manufacturers are selling their cats with this caveat - "catamarans IN GENERAL are exposed to bulkhead issues because they are wide platforms flexing in heavy seas"? I'm going to hazard a guess and say none. None of those I dealt with did.

Well of course not - big production firms sell to a wide sector of people mostly for charter and in many cases to their own charter companies. I'm not coming forward for Lagoon and I would be first to put my hand up and say they have to design it better - but I'm also saying Lagoon is not alone in this and in general catamaran manufacturers will have to look at this.

I've had the great pleasure of sailing in Australia for a few years - and will say Aussies build some nice boats but we are talking about a much bigger production line where obviously one hears more about issues.

Well folks - it's been real - I am so seldom on CF, hardly come here unless I'm promted to - I hope my comments are seen in a positive light with no malice or agenda intended .

Cheers guys and happy sailing until next time

Good post Impi and a fair comment on production cats and going in with your eyes wide open.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by impi

Ok Guys - well the pitch forks are out and coming at a pace that I won’t be able to keep up with and that’s fine by me -

Not necessarily pitch forks out
But certainly after evidence of these other "brands" that have issues

My attempt to cover some ground concerning the responses raised are simply this - I stand by what I’ve shared and one can do the research around this. I am not saying lagoon do not have an issue with bulkheads but I am saying many catamarans do when they sail across oceans.

:

. I'm not coming forward for Lagoon and I would be first to put my hand up and say they have to design it better - but I'm also saying Lagoon is not alone in this and in general catamaran manufacturers will have to look at this

.

I've had the great pleasure of sailing in Australia for a few years - and will say Aussies build some nice boats but we are talking about a much bigger production line where obviously one hears more about issues

.

Ok, so reading through your posts several times it seems you are talking production boats?
So not all catamarans, more the factory built ones using dubious quality ply and snot from a tube and calling it a bulkhead.

I'd agree with that as I've always had issue with production build vs custom, one off and so called amateur builds seeing many amateur builds done to a far higher standard than ones from a factory

All the designers I mentioned earlier are certainly more of a one off, custom , amateur build type of cat and I stick by my comment that those, ones that would have well designed drum style bulkheads (ply - timber truss - ply - timber truss - ply) or cored bulkheads with large unidirectional glass ring frames around the perimeter and doorways and then those bulkheads coved and glassed into the hull and then furniture and other supporting structure coved and glassed into that, would not have these issues you mention.

But It does make me wonder why you didn't go down that path yourself seeing as you knew production boats had BH issues.
I just can't get my head around buying something not suitable for its intended job and having to do fairly major structural work before it ticks your boxes.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

I just can't get my head around buying something not suitable for its intended job and having to do fairly major structural work before it ticks your boxes.

it is all calculation, get best value product with minimum $. You have your must have like: 5T of useful load, 9 kn in 15 kn reaching, happy wife, budget, comfort at anchor, comfort in rough seas etc etc and you work out best option. You are saying boat should tick all boxes when you buy. But likely price is very high and with combining production boat that has top architect behind and mass production line advantage you can get much cheaper and with additional work you get all boxex ticked but cheaper. I see no issue with that approach.

For example I always planned tropical boat with plenty space and that what we got - good enough after 10 years still zero problems. It may be i sail overrrefed, duno. But now we see need that boat needs to be able to do 3 capes. And I see enough meat in our boat to be used as a base to upgrade to the required level. Which i what i am doing right now

[Wilyum]

Its well known Colin’s boat was hurricane damaged, perhaps he over tightened the rigging, perhaps he hit a rock like Nahoa, thats irrelevant, what he’s pointing out is that there are serious calculated design flaws that Lagoon made to make a price point in a competitive charter market. Unlike many other makes of catamaran bulkheads, the ones in his boat were severely under built for a boat of that size.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

it is all calculation, get best value product with minimum $. You have your must have like: 5T of useful load, 9 kn in 15 kn reaching, happy wife, budget, comfort at anchor, comfort in rough seas etc etc and you work out best option. You are saying boat should tick all boxes when you buy. But likely price is very high and with combining production boat that has top architect behind and mass production line advantage you can get much cheaper and with additional work you get all boxex ticked but cheaper. I see no issue with that approach.

For example I always planned tropical boat with plenty space and that what we got - good enough after 10 years still zero problems. It may be i sail overrrefed, duno. But now we see need that boat needs to be able to do 3 capes. And I see enough meat in our boat to be used as a base to upgrade to the required level. Which i what i am doing right now

What I am saying is structural integrity shouldn't be compromised to save a buck
I'd gladly give up Corian benchtops in favour of Laminex as long as the bulkheads are built properly.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

What I am saying is structural integrity shouldn't be compromised to save a buck
I'd gladly give up Corian benchtops in favour of Laminex as long as the bulkheads are built properly.

totally agree. bulkheads should be way more protected against rot in lagoon and it appears in 450 undersized. but you have to deal with what you have at time. reality is that french boats are built for larger loading capacity than australian of same size. To get carrying capacity of 5 T you need to go close to 60 ft cat which is $$$$$$$. And your wife will not accept excuses, or else you facing very short sailing career.

[ozsailer]

Originally Posted by Wilyum

Its well known Colin’s boat was hurricane damaged, perhaps he over tightened the rigging, perhaps he hit a rock like Nahoa, thats irrelevant, what he’s pointing out is that there are serious calculated design flaws that Lagoon made to make a price point in a competitive charter market. Unlike many other makes of catamaran bulkheads, the ones in his boat were severely under built for a boat of that size.

"Its well known Colin’s boat was hurricane damaged, perhaps he over tightened the rigging, perhaps he hit a rock like Nahoa, thats irrelevant" IRRELAVANT !!!! I just dont know where to start with a comment like that. Hit a rock, have a hard grounding, overtighten your rig is not irrelevant. Its a friggin major cause of what this type of event can have on vessel regardless of it being a mono, cat or power craft. For crying out loud an event of this type can sink or severely damage a boat and has done so many times in the past and will occur into the future. if you really think such an event is irrelevant with your contention that it is a design fault then every boat in the world is designed incorrectly.

Ozsailer

[Wilyum]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

"Its well known Colin’s boat was hurricane damaged, perhaps he over tightened the rigging, perhaps he hit a rock like Nahoa, thats irrelevant" IRRELAVANT !!!! I just dont know where to start with a comment like that. Hit a rock, have a hard grounding, overtighten your rig is not irrelevant. Its a friggin major cause of what this type of event can have on vessel regardless of it being a mono, cat or power craft. For crying out loud an event of this type can sink or severely damage a boat and has done so many times in the past and will occur into the future. if you really think such an event is irrelevant with your contention that it is a design fault then every boat in the world is designed incorrectly.

Ozsailer

Reread my post, its irrelevant to the point Colin is making, he knows his boat has hurricane damage, he knows he may have over tightened his rig, those two things didnt cause Lagoon to install bulkheads undersized and tabbed poorly, thats why they are irrelevant to the point HE is making.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

totally agree. bulkheads should be way more protected against rot in lagoon and it appears in 450 undersized.

but you have to deal with what you have at time. reality is that french boats are built for larger loading capacity than australian of same size

Yeah but big load on short hulls adds to the stresses and robs performance.

. To get carrying capacity of 5 T you need to go close to 60 ft cat which is $$$$$$$. And your wife will not accept excuses, or else you facing very short sailing career

.

Came to the same conclusion and why we went for what we have now
All the comforts and none of the compromise and for a lot less $$$$$$$